Denafrips Ares 12th speculation/discussion/impressions

[sajunky]

@GoldenOne. Zero-order-hold decoding method is probably used on every NOS DAC on the planet. Sic! At least I don't know any, I can be wrong.

More detailed name: zero-order sample&hold, it is why a name. Any non-zero order means sample&hold with oversampling. Or less scientific, popular name: sample&hold at a base frequency. So Pontus on this point of view does not do anything odd.

Some concern is regarding FFT dip at 7xxkHz. Isn't it in result of error compensation? It needs more investigation, to early for a stream words of condemnation.

Frankly, I am not surprised that now you claim that for a pure NOS it must be some ringing on a pulse respone. I know that it is in purpose to prove that Holo Audio is a pure NOS. Is not, really?

Unfortunately for your clam, AudioNote DACs do not produce ringing on the Stereophile tests. And JA has an analyser with 200kHz sampling rate that was showing ringing on Holo Audio DACs, but not AudioNote. Why it happens? AudioNote DACs are pure NOS, no one question it.

If you don't have AudioNote DAC for testing, take any other NOS DAC, maybe Phasure NOS1A will be good one. Make two tests, one with your normal 3GHz and another one with 200kHz sampling rate of A/D converter to make it similar to the Stereophile equipment.

You have already posted in other thread results of Holo Audio pulse response using the above method, it was ringing on 200kHz test (matching exactly Stereophile test) and no ringing at 3GHz. It brings a reason for making the same pair of tests for Pontus and other DAC's you refered above using the same scale.

 

[GoldenSound]

@GoldenOne. Zero-order-hold decoding method is probably used on every NOS DAC on the planet. Sic! At least I don't know any, I can be wrong.

More detailed name: zero-order sample&hold, it is why a name. Any non-zero order means sample&hold with oversampling. Or less scientific, popular name: sample&hold at a base frequency. So Pontus on this point of view does not do anything odd.

Some concern is regarding FFT dip at 7xxkHz. Isn't it in result of error compensation? It needs more investigation, to early for a stream words of condemnation.

Frankly, I am not surprised that now you claim that for a pure NOS it must be some ringing on a pulse respone. I know that it is in purpose to prove that Holo Audio is a pure NOS. Is not, really?

Unfortunately for your clam, AudioNote DACs do not produce ringing on the Stereophile tests. And JA has an analyser with 200kHz sampling rate that was showing ringing on Holo Audio DACs, but not AudioNote. Why it happens? AudioNote DACs are pure NOS, no one question it.

If you don't have AudioNote DAC for testing, take any other NOS DAC, maybe Phasure NOS1A will be good one. Make two tests, one with your normal 3GHz and another one with 200kHz sampling rate of A/D converter to make it similar to the Stereophile equipment.

You have already posted in other thread results of Holo Audio pulse response using the above method, it was ringing on 200kHz test (matching exactly Stereophile test) and no ringing at 3GHz. It brings a reason for making the same pair of tests for Pontus and other DAC's you refered above using the same scale.

Please refer to the first three or four times we had this discussion.

In the interest of not getting messages removed (as we've already had done in this very thread), I'm not going to go round in circles with you again

 

[eskamobob1]

Ignore me. Not worth wading into

 

[eskamobob1]

Ignore me. Not worth wading into

 

[sajunky]

In the interest of not getting messages removed (as we've already had done in this very thread), I'm not going to go round in circles with you again

I agree, it is annoying, but it must be a fault on our side. I don't want to comment on the moderation, really. You have complained on my behaviour too. There must be other thread to place complains against mods. Reason for deleting was off-topic, this is not.

Your test on a Pontus 12th pulse response is actually supporting Denafrips NOS feature. If you claim otherwise, you must prove it. Before trying other ways, it is important to get consensus on the pulse response test.

So far it was acknowleged that NOS DAC should not generate ringing on the pulse response test. It is how it looked on AudioNote Stereophile tests (with 200kHz A/D analyzer sampling). Holo Audio was first one that produced ringing on the same equipment, JA was surprised. Now, based on the Holo Audio example you draw a conclusion that every NOS DAC pulse response test on the planet should look like Holo Audio, so Pontus 12th NOS feature is doubful, as it doesn't produce ringing!

Are we heading for an agreement on this issue? Examples I requested would help. If not, further debate doesn't make sense. And please do not complain on moderation.

 

[Nada]

Thank you very much to @George Hincapie for lending me his Pontus II 12th Anniversary Edition to do a bit of testing.

Thanks very much @George Hincapie. I really appreciate your generosity and sharing. I was tempted to "upgrade" to a 12th but there's no point for me now. You just saved me thousands. Cheers mate.

the DAC is not actually operating in NOS. It is oversampling at seemingly 32x, for a bandwidth of 768khz or 705.6khz.

Thanks very much for doing the measurements. Disappointing result for me but good to know. When I asked if you could do these measurements, I was concerned of a repeat, but I'm still shocked. I also note you predicted this exact scenario of using OS with zero order filtering, in what looks like a deliberate attempt to obscure the OS.

I wonder if doing 32x external OS can defeat the weird Denafrips DSP? What you would find on your AP if you feed the Pontus 12th 32x with external over-sampling, via its USB, with the DAC set to its pseudo-NOS mode? Is that a way to override and defeat the strange double peak OS Denafrips wave form that you found on the Ares II and also defeat the zero-hold pseudo-NOS mode. It sounds good anyway. Any chance of a re-test?

My favourite way to get x32 on a Windoze for free, is Foobar with PGGB. PGGB is very interesting.

The fact that they've not only lied about this once but then tried to hide it and then doubled down on it also only throws doubt on what other claims about their products might not be true at all....

This is just bad business practice. A potential marketing faux pas. It is likely to cost them in profits.

I hope no one launches a class legal action against Denafrips based on this. They look like they use a Singapore marketing front which seems smart to get some separation, but Singapore law is much more robust than Chinese and a litigious Singapore legal team could cause them grief.

I'm not going to go round in circles

Thanks for not feeding that droll junky who is so consistently technically impaired. Its hard to believe anyone could be so confused unless they are doing it deliberately to spread mayhem. May I suggest using the ignore feature. It works very well.

 

[sajunky]

I also note you predicted this exact scenario of using OS with zero order filtering, in what looks like a deliberate attempt to obscure the OS.

Just to be clear if @GoldenOne didn't do it properly or obscured deliberately: zero-order-hold operation is a property of NOS. Plain and simple.

 

[GoldenSound]

Just to be clear if @GoldenOne didn't do it properly or obscured deliberately: zero-order-hold operation is a property of NOS. Plain and simple.

But it isn't true Zero-order-hold. That's the whole point.
If it was, that dip at 768khz would not be present. It's emulated ZOH, but it cannot do so with infinite bandwidth in the digital domain whereas true zero-order-hold is only limited in bandwidth by analog slew rate. Hence why the Bifrost 2 for example does not show the same behaviour.

 

[sajunky]

But it isn't true Zero-order-hold. That's the whole point.
If it was, that dip at 768khz would not be present. It's emulated ZOH

Links to emulated ZOH?

It must be in your literature. Otherwise how you would heard about? So, please...

 

[GoldenSound]

Links to emulated ZOH?

It must be in your literature. Otherwise how you would heard about? So, please...

You can try it out/experiment/inspect for yourself using any resampling tool which has a ZOH option.
This foobar plugin for instance: https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_dsp_multiresampler

 

[elnero]

@GoldenOne you have the patience of a saint.

 

[JerryLeeds]

All I know is that I’m enjoying the sound from my 2 channel setup .. it is sounding great with the Ares 12th … though I have a Schiit lokius with the two lower frequency dials on the plus side…

I don’t qualify as an audiophile… I just want to enjoy my music

I was originally debating if I should get the Pontus 2 … once the ares 12th was out I thought it a good first step for a R2R DAC

At this point I will just wait for a Pontus 3 or another quality R2R …
I don’t use a PC (or any computer) in my setup so I can’t up sample prior to the DAC

 

[dexterwinter]

All I know is that I’m enjoying the sound from my 2 channel setup .. it is sounding great with the Ares 12th … though I have a Schiit lokius with the two lower frequency dials on the plus side…

I don’t qualify as an audiophile… I just want to enjoy my music

I was originally debating if I should get the Pontus 2 … once the ares 12th was out I thought it a good first step for a R2R DAC

At this point I will just wait for a Pontus 3 or another quality R2R …

Exactly

 

[GiFi]

guys, finding ourselves close to Christmas and in the light of the mess in the world, I propose to go back to having a more peaceful conversation and to concentrate more on listening impressions, leaving the very technical questions to dedicated reviews. What matters most is whether machines make us feel emotions.

 

[WolfHound]

Ordered mine on 21 Dec and just received today 23 Dec as I stay in Singapore. Kudos Vinshine Audio!

Used to have the old CD6004 transport and HD DAC of Marantz which normally uses Cirrus Logic CS4398 DAC that sounded sweet.

Then the recent SMSL M400 AK4499 failed to power up and was sent for overseas repair on 11 Nov which takes months... and thats why I bought the Ares 12.
AK4499 as compared to CS4398 revealed more details(image, separation, soundstage) and attractive center focus vocal which is engaging in their own smooth silky way.

Powering up initial impression R2R is... Separation and airiness, even a LOT more details and every little bit presence which faded naturally in a distant that most described as accurate analog tonality. Most importantly not sibilant.

I will need to wait for the return of SMSL M400 from repair to listen again in detail the enjoying factor and meanwhile run in Ares 12 listen to the rest of the songs!

Anyway, both DACs are awesome and won't go wrong with either.

Merry Xmas!