[waffenschmidt]

Quote:

We need a headphone jargon glossary around here...

Stereophile already has one here

A couple of relevant definitions from the above reference:

tight: 1) Bass reproduction that is well controlled, free from hangover, not slow.

boomy: Characterized by pronounced exaggeration of the midbass and, often, dominance of a narrow range of bass frequencies. ("One-note bass.")

deep bass: Frequencies below 40Hz.

 

[gerG]

Dang, one of my favorite topics, and I am late to the party! That won't keep me out, however.

I use the following definitions relating to the bass spectrum:

Deep or low bass: first octave (20-40 hz)
Midbass: second octave (40-80)
Upper bass: third octave (80-160)

After that it is midrange, although some might consider upper bass to go to 200hz.

Boomy bass can be caused by either poor damping (control) so that the note lingers to long, or by an over emphasis in a certain range (usually around 50 hz). It is tough to separate the two, especially with speakers, because our ear tells us that there is a higher amplitude if the note hangs on just a bit longer. Too long and we start hearing the blurry or muddy bass. Extreme casses of poor damping are those cars that go boommmmm. Cramming a large speaker into a small cabinet typically yields poor damping and high resonance peaks.

Then there is slap, or punch, or snap. This is a combination of quick transient response, and the bass information in the 60 to 80 hz range. A good example is the new Sen HD650, which has (to me) annoyingly punchy bass. If I remove the 80 hz bump from the response, the problem is cured, but the bass is shallow (weak in the first octave). If I counter the low bass rolloff rolloff to get flat response down to 20 hz, the result is damned near perfect! Those drivers are extremely well damped, although I suspect the HD600s may be a bit better.

That is bass-ically it.


gerG

 

[wallijonn]

bass bloat - an overall uneven tonal range over a wide frequency range where more bass is heard overall than the midrange or the treble put together, usually in the mid bass, 200 Hz, region. dynamics do not clip. no distortion. slam. groove.

boomy bass - even tighter range of bass, usually over a 1 octave range (say 40 - 80 Hz). one note bass. dynamics clip. distortion.

tight bass - dynamics do not clip. no distortion.

deep bass - a sense of air movement. felt not heard. a sense of added body to low notes. punch.

 

[ph0rk]

Quote:

Originally posted by CheewyMuffin Also take into acount that some basses are very boomy. so like some recordings the bass is actually supposed to be boomy.

And other basses are fuzzy!

.

 

[Geek]

Tight bass: bass is articulate.

Deep bass: The part of the frequency spectrum which is located at the very bottom end, stretching down to the bottom of the audible limit. Headphones with deep bass reproduce this.

I'll add another one-
Punchy bass: The ability of a headphone to reproduce the energy and tonality present in the bottom end of the frequency spectrum. Punchy bass tends to go along with tight bass, but is more an emphasis on its musicality and pleasantness than articulation.

Headphones with tight, punchy bass imho:
HD600
DT250 series

Headphones with deep bass:
DT770

Headphones with deep, tight, punchy bass:
HD650
K271S

For example, the HD600 has tight, punchy bass but tends to be bumped in the mid/upper bass and so isn't as "deep" sounding. On the other hand, the HD650 has the same or higher level of articulation, but also has even extension, meaning that bass does not attenuate as it drops in pitch, like with all other headphones minus the DT770.
The DT770 has deep bass, but it sounds sloppy and really thick, without being very accurate or musical.

Edit: The HD650 has even deeper bass than the DT770 and can reproduce louder bass sine waves without clipping or driver distortions/vibrations.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[zeplin]

geek,
i've noticed this too about the HD650's. they can reproduce the deepest bass i've ever heard. even deeper than the V6's can go, which shows me the true definition of deep, tight, well controled bass that is not boomy in the least bit. the HD600's in comparison have that more warmer sound because they have an emphasis in the mid bass region that is tight/accurate, but does not reach very deep. this is where the HD650 i believe truely excells and takes it to the next level. better yet, the overall frequency spectrum is more tight and controlled versus the HD600's presentation.

it is a coincidence that this thread came up because before i bought the HD650's, i did not know the true definition/or have had the experience of tight, deep, punchy warm bass all rolled up into one package...these headphones have so greatly combined them and have showed me what everyone here is talking about and currently attempting define. my W1000's went deep, but weren't controlled and thus sounded boomy on some recordings in the deep bass region. my V6's went really deep, but were over emphasized in terms of pure volume (db level) of the bass presented, which made them sound deep, but not tight, and thus boomy sometimes. my MDR F1's did not really go that deep, but had an overly punchy mid bassy sound that made the bass sound sloppy and uncontrolled...it was nice on some recordings, but only to a certain extent. it is just great to finally have a phone that can accomplish all these aspects without over emphasizing anything. and i haven't even plugged the Mobius cables in yet. they still need to arrive, and i'm starting to get a little impatient. can't wait to see what they'll do to the already tight, deep, fast HD650 bass.
this is a great thread topic, and i only hope more people, with other great headphones that can achieve all these qualities at once, can experience this blissfull type of sound (imo).

 

[Music Fanatic]

On thing this thread has taught me is that the term "tight bass" is not at all standardized on this board, and means many different things to different people. It would be nice in reviews if people could you more explicit terms rather than ambiguous phrases such as "tight bass".

 

[cadjack]

Wouldn't tight bass be defined by the damping factor of the drivers and the slew rate of the source?

 

[CrawlingEye]

I think it's kind of odd how people judge things as being 'tight' and so on. You can say the bass sounds 'tight' or 'focused' but realistically, do any of you take into account what the musician's using?

All instruments have their own voice.

For instance:
A Modulus Quantum bass will sound "cold" if properly reproduced, as that is their sound signature. (any red hot chili peppers fans?)

A Fender Precision bass will sound rather honky in the mids, again, this is the sound signature. I won't even bother listing how many musicians use these.

A Fender Jazz may sound articulate but fairly smooth. This again, is the sound signature. Many Jazz Musicians use these, as well as others from all genres. One of the more notable jazz musicians being Marcus Miller, currently.

A Music Man may sound very 'ballsy' and focused, with tons of low end punch, but this is again the sound signature of the bass.

An Epiphone EB-0 (fairly cheap bass) will sound rather large but also quite boomy. Again, this is the sound of the bass, not the recording.

I think a lot of you need to check the sources of sound (what equipment is the bassist using?) and then compare it to what's being reproduced.

If you're headphones make all music sound 'punchy' it may not be a very accurate representation of the music itself.

This subject can get very tacky though when you have to consider how much changing was done during the mastering of the tape. Sometimes songs can be changed from what the musician wants to what the person mastering the album wants and/or producer.

This topic doesn't get enough said about it for people to be accurately informed. I don't intend any of this to be snobby, but just a heads up.

 

[wallijonn]

Music Fanatic -

a sharp hit of a kettle drum.

or bounching a quarter off your bed covers.

 

[cadjack]

Now you're getting to the heart of the matter, CrawlingEye. Music Fanatic's post had me thinking in measureable terms, not perception of sound and the way the player's setup affects it..Nobody listens to sine waves dangit.

Back in the day, the Jazz/Precison hybrid was the holy grail for most bass players. The best tone to my ears was from an early Rick 4001 using a blackface Bassman for a preamp, Phase Linear 400 for power, and old 15" EV SRO whitebacks in homemade cabs. The equation doesn't add up, but it beat the '69 Fenders and even Tobias prototype #3 for tone. Different amps, natch.

The player, instrument, amp, and personal perception of perfection can't be measured in numbers or words. I'm just a roadhouse rocker (and I'm not trying to come off as snobby at all) the sound starts with the player's thoughts and seldom ends up as he intended. Magic or mush seems to be in the ear of the beholder, I'd rather hear it the way it was played.

-Jack

 

[Geek]

This is very true. Good headphones just tell you what's on the recording. That's the topic - you're hearing more of what's actually there with better reproduction of sound.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[Geek]

Also, on an unrelated side note, the RME 96/8 PAD @32-bit/96khz ---> Dimarzio M-path ----> MOH(R) -----> cardas ----> HD650 has the best bass I've heard from a headphone combo yet. The 650s have a faster, more articulate bass response than the 600s now.

Cheers,
Geek

 

[ph0rk]

don't forget the fundamental of the low-B on a 5 string is about 30.87 hz, and the low E is at 41.2 hz, both well below what many headphones can faithfully reproduce (at least well compared to the rest of the spectrum).

A large number of the recent heavy rock bands are using dropped D lowered to C tuning on 4 strings and dropped A on 5 strings, giving 32.7 hz and 27.5 hz, respectively.

Half the time we're probably only listening to the upper harmonic content :/ (the same goes for low bass produced by instruments other than string basses)

besides, the real lo end is made with woodwinds! http://www.contrabass.com/2002/2002-06-08.html

 

[CrawlingEye]

Quote:

Originally posted by cadjack Now you're getting to the heart of the matter, CrawlingEye. Music Fanatic's post had me thinking in measureable terms, not perception of sound and the way the player's setup affects it..Nobody listens to sine waves dangit. Back in the day, the Jazz/Precison hybrid was the holy grail for most bass players. The best tone to my ears was from an early Rick 4001 using a blackface Bassman for a preamp, Phase Linear 400 for power, and old 15" EV SRO whitebacks in homemade cabs. The equation doesn't add up, but it beat the '69 Fenders and even Tobias prototype #3 for tone. Different amps, natch. The player, instrument, amp, and personal perception of perfection can't be measured in numbers or words. I'm just a roadhouse rocker (and I'm not trying to come off as snobby at all) the sound starts with the player's thoughts and seldom ends up as he intended. Magic or mush seems to be in the ear of the beholder, I'd rather hear it the way it was played. -Jack

Agreed. But having heard many amps, I must say that not all sounds are for all musicians, and the obvious result is different sounding bassists with preferences for certain amplifies, cables, basses, strings and cabinets. One look at talkbass.com will confirm this for anyone.

With this said, I personally have been through many painstaking years of trying to find my 'ideal' sound. I've found 2 rigs which I've persued which come close to it. One of them being a Peavey BAM combo, which has amp modeling circuitry and allows you to mix and match certain classic amplifier and cabinet combinations to your taste, then use EQ's which are modeled to act as they would on the original amp. I think the best sound I've heard from this is the 1x15 fliptop cab model (I assume an old Ampeg fliptop tube amp model) and Peavey T-Max amp model. It struck a good smooth medium for me, with my Music Man Sterling.

Another that struck me as being rather good sounding, even better IMO, was the GK 800RB with a Bag End S15X-D plugged in. Running at 200w, I think I'd have to push it very hard at band practices, so I'm thinking of buying a second S15X-D once I start on my new rig.

I've also tested multiple sets of strings. From GHS groundwound's to Rotosound Swing 66's to DR Lo-Riders and Hi-Beams to D'Addario Prisms. I've finally settled on the Prisms, they have good 'ping' in my opinion, which compliments the style of music I play (largely rock-based).

I hope this post gives many of you some insight of the research along with trial and error that some musicians go through to come up with 'their ideal sound' for things. I could easily go into all my past purchases and take up paragraphs worth, but instead, I just tried to go into a couple details. Not all basses sound the same and not all are intended to sound the same. An 'ideal headphone' may make things sound punchy to you, but this may not be all so accurate.

My personal ideal sound for my bass setup would not be to extend to 15Hz, as I don't even play a 5 string (which would be required to even get near there). 4 String basses (the industry standard) only go down to 41Hz, most cabinets are tuned to reach 35Hz or 40Hz, as this is all that is required to produce a fundamental for the Low E and all of its harmonic octaves. I don't mean this to sway anyone from a headphone that boasts "fs down to 9Hz" but I do mean it to show that the capability of 9Hz may go unused most all the time.

I hope this helps everyone understand things a bit clearer.