[uzziah]

this is more a research interest than being ready to buy right now. however, i'm considering the axiom m2i with a dedicated sub (most likely diy myself in a mdf box), or something like paradigm monitor 5's

wonder what opinions might be found here. the axioms are very clear in that they don't even try to reproduce low end, thus making them an excellent pic for a dedicated sub. the paradigm's on the other hand have a sub driver built in. i worry about a built in sub muddying the sound by vibration or interference with the mid driver.

mainly i want to know: what do you prefer? dedicated sub or integrated?

thanks

 

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

In a small to medium sized room I favor bookshelf speakers with a dedicated subwoofer. In a larger room I prefer huge speakers.

 

[Necros]

Generally speakers, dedicated subwoofers are usually always better. Most people recommend that you use speakers from bookshelf to large towers, and have a seperate subwoofer.

There is alot of information about this, far above my level of understanding.With subs in main speakers you'll have...

More problems with room nodes, cannot locate elseware.
Cancellation of subwoofer with each other, difficult to correct.
If subwoofers are driven by L/R power, huge drain from amplifier.
Much more expensive.

 

[jpr703]

Speaker placement should be considered in this equation. If you're subs are integrated into your speakers than they have to go wherever your speakers go. The odds that they'll sound just right in that position aren't too good, IMHO.

Personally, I don't like subs for music unless I'm using small bookshelf speakers and absolutely need it. If you get a seperate, you could always move it to a home theater setup if you decide to buy full-size speakers somewhere down the line.

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by uzziah something like paradigm monitor 5's

Is this the same paradigm monitor 5 that you mentioned ? Can't see any integrated subs there, only 2 woofers ?

Anyway, if I were on a budget I prefer to use higher quality monitor and add so-so subwoofer instead of going with mediocre fullrange speakers. A dedicated sub is required unless you have extra separate power amp, and it's more difficult to match non-dedicated / passive subs with main speakers.

Having said that, ime a well set up stereo passive subs placed under main speakers (with separate amp and crossover) should give better sound than single sub placed somewhere in the room.

 

[Necros]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man A dedicated sub is required unless you have extra separate power amp

Not really..even if you still have poweramps for all channels, a seperate subwoofer instead of multiple in the mains subwoofers in different locations is more easier to get sounding it's best. In a HT system with mains with internal subs means you'll have subwoofer in the left, another in the right, and a LFE subwoofer. I have poweramps all-round and still went for single sub instead of proper full-range towers with subs (mains are 40hz F3) It usually works better that way...only a single speaker producing low bass. If you need more output buy another and stack.


Quote:

and it's more difficult to match non-dedicated / passive subs with main speakers.

Again, not true. If you've got bass management, then the active/ passive seperate subs...adjust BM settings to match and bring up/down sub level on the HT pre-amp to match.

If you don't have BM it only takes a little while to match up, again ability to place sub in the best location, if you find the subs in the L/R is in the worst position pretty much stuck.

Quote:

Having said that, ime a well set up stereo passive subs placed under main speakers (with separate amp and crossover) should give better sound than single sub placed somewhere in the room

Unless of course placement of L/R speakers is ideal, usually not.

 

[pigmode]

A lot of this boils down to subjective taste and expectations. Personally, I don't like the way subs intergrate into a system, due to coherence issues. This is mostly related to the next speaker system I plan to build, which will consist of a full range pair.

If I were looking at a more modest system, my expectations would be much lower, and a sub would therefore become an option.

Also when you speak about subwoofer intergration, you also have to take into consideration the given methods of connection and how that will affect the sound.

 

[D-EJ915]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man Is this the same paradigm monitor 5 that you mentioned ? Can't see any integrated subs there, only 2 woofers ?

The Monitor 5s don't have integrated subs.

The Monitor 70P and 90P had built-in amps for their woofers. They stopped selling them a while ago (like a few years).

 

[hifiguy]

After more than 30 years of selling and setting up audio systems IMHO you should definitely go with the built in low frequency drivers. Although the main complaint here is that you won't have a choice in the placement of the woofers that problem is greatly overshadowed by several other issues an outboard subwoofer causes.

First and foremost, 99% of all outboard subs do not have the speed to match what is happening in the mid and high frequencies. Secondly, few people consider the fact that they are usually using a sub that is not even built or voiced to match with their satellite speaker. I'll give you an example of the problem this causes. If you've heard somebody tune a guitar, when it is out of tune you hear the sound increase and decrease in volume until both strings are tuned to the same frequency. This is precisely what happens when two speaker products that are not the same try to reproduce the same frequency.

There are just too many factors that can't be adjusted in an outboard sub to allow one (especially one that isn't specifically matched) to fine tune it to the same degree as a manufacturer who is selecting or manufacturing drivers to go in the same cabinet. Most people never get their subs right, and by the way two are almost always better than one.

Room mode problems, standing waves in particular, are often ameliorated with two subs, and unacceptable with one.

In a speaker, although there are some with restricted frequency response, the low frequency driver actually extends up into the lower midrange. That is something few subs do well. One, because most people tend to overdo the bass and this requires the design to be able to bear this abuse. That of course limits it's ability to move rapidly enough to produce those frequencies well. Secondly, as you move up in frequency phase response becomes much more critical. Electronic crossovers generally have more difficulty with phase accuracy as well.

Generally speaking, and that is the best I can do without knowing everything about your system and your room, you will get a more cohesive sound from top to bottom and more tuneful bass with the built in woofers.

You may not be able to go, as low or play the bass as loud, but overall I think you will be much closer to the real sound of music.

 

[D-EJ915]

Also, in most applications built-in subwoofers are just to increase bass output and definition...not to shake the room like an external sub will. Keep that in mind.

 

[ooheadsoo]

Quote:

If you've heard somebody tune a guitar, when it is out of tune you hear the sound increase and decrease in volume until both strings are tuned to the same frequency. This is precisely what happens when two speaker products that are not the same try to reproduce the same frequency.

Huh??

 

[Necros]

I think he's trying to say that mains + sub producing the same frequency is bad. But by his own admission mains with subs do that- which is bad!

Quote:

the low frequency driver actually extends up into the lower midrange.

If you've got a steep enough slope on the sub & L/R channels then this is not a problem with smaller mains and sub(s) Setting up is a breeze in a HT system...I agree 2 channel is a bit more complicated but within a couple of hours you can get the right setting of gain + crossover setting.

You really don't want a subwoofer to overlap too much- a little bit maybe to compensate for the drop-off of the mains so you don't have suckout between the two speakers, but you don't want too much either...mid-range is far too high (unless using little satellites!)

Considering the expense with full-range towers with subs, and the cost to drive them (really need Bryston or similar) it's not worth it..buy near high quality towers with decent bass response, and buy one or two identical subs either stacked or co-located next to the left & right speakers, adjusting phase accordingly. Set crossover on mains to higher than rated F3 point, bring up sub(s) crossover to around there, and adjust gain to taste.

I use standmount 50hz F3 without sub in my Hi-Fi system, towers with 40hz F3 with sub in my HT system.

The blend between mains and sub is invisible, you just need to spend a few minutes working out the best setting and buy a SPL meter. Seperates subs can just be as "musical" as their inbox counterparts..and in fact built-in subs can cloud the rest of the soundstage, if cabinet bracing is not sufficient it'll ess around with the higher frequencies.

You've also got the problem of the amplifier driving very low frequencies plus the rest of the audio spectrum, which will effect sound quality of higher frequencies (and available clean power to those drivers) unless you go into full active tri-amped system- so you can filter out frequencies before the amp stages. Very very expensive. Also the problem of finding matching active cards for your speakers...easy with Linn but for others?

 

[Nak Man]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necros Again, not true. If you've got bass management, then the active/ passive seperate subs...adjust BM settings to match and bring up/down sub level on the HT pre-amp to match.

I don't exactly follow your argument ... I'm talking about pure 2 ch music, which I thought OP inquiried in the first place.

Apart from 'integrated' subwoofer vs separate dedicated sub, my point was, for stereo music, one would get better result using two L+R subs vs single sub. And for that matter I suggest to go like active system: separate power amp to passive diy subs through electronic xo, instead of getting 2 add-on dedicated subs to fill in your mains bottom. More painful in system matching due to wide flexibility, but ime result in better sound once we find a good balance. Most separate subs that I heard (no good brand names though) sound like they were designed for HT boomy effects, not for music.

 

[comabereni]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nak Man I don't exactly follow your argument ... I'm talking about pure 2 ch music, which I thought OP inquiried in the first place. Apart from 'integrated' subwoofer vs separate dedicated sub, my point was, for stereo music, one would get better result using two L+R subs vs single sub. And for that matter I suggest to go like active system: separate power amp to passive diy subs through electronic xo, instead of getting 2 add-on dedicated subs to fill in your mains bottom. More painful in system matching due to wide flexibility, but ime result in better sound once we find a good balance. Most separate subs that I heard (no good brand names though) sound like they were designed for HT boomy effects, not for music.

I've spent the last almost four months optimizing the system in my home office/listening room. I tried dual (and triple) subs and never could get more than one to sound good. Room effects, overlap, cancellation, etc. resulted in noticeably inferior sound compared with using just a single 12" subwoofer and proper crossovers.

Boominess? A stout, reinforced sealed enclosure and adequate amplifier power ensure my 12" Infinity Kappa DIY sub is quick and tight. Yes, I'm probably sacrificing a little extension and am certainly sacrificing some SPLs, but those weren't my goals. It is very musical and reaches far below my bookshelf speakers with authority.

The sub is powered by an auto amplifier bridged into mono running off a 12v linear PSU with a low pass crossover set at 70Hz. I use a separate high-pass crossover also set at 70Hz for the bookshelves, so there is a little bit of overlap, but not enough to cause any issues.

So this is what I found best, at least for me, for music, in my ~12' x ~14' room. If it were primarily for home theater, I'd have no problem doing dual or even triple subs.

-coma

 

[Nak Man]

Coma, how do you use 3 subs for 2ch music ? Did you use each configuration in mixed mono with different number of subs ?

I use single mono sub with maggies on a larger room and could hear different bass level in almost every spot in that room.

On the other hand, 2 subs in stereo config (not mixed mono) act very much like woofer extension (although in a smaller room) and they just blend perfectly like single speaker set everywhere I listen to them. And this setup use dinky adcom 60wpc amp for sealed boston pros 12" with 60hz crossover taken from audiocontrol 2xs. =) After trying various sub configurations, for me there's no turning back to single mono sub.

I don't have enough experience on proper HT setup, but have had enough frustation in matching up single sub with kef mains. In addition to different bass levels in the room, bass for movies sound overwhelming on music while good balance for music made .1 effects for movies disappeared.