Decision: Stock D5000 or APS V3 D2000?
Jul 10, 2008 at 11:54 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 32

pataburd

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I'm at a familiar impasse: after having accrued funds to APS V3 recable the K501, I'm considering using the monies to instead:

(a) put toward the stock D5000,
(b) purchase an already APS V3 recabled pair of D2000.

A/b-ing the stock D2000--which I currently own and immensely enjoy--against either option [(a) or (b)] will be of interest to me. For option (a), I would compare the two major tiers within Denon; for (b), I would be evaluating the effects of the APS V3 on the D2000.

What do you all think would be the better first step?
 
Jul 10, 2008 at 12:32 PM Post #3 of 32
I am more interested in option (a).
smily_headphones1.gif
There will be no big deal for you to sell either of the stock Denon's when you choose the winner, and recable the right one.
 
Jul 10, 2008 at 12:46 PM Post #4 of 32
Quote:

Originally Posted by majkel /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I am more interested in option (a).
smily_headphones1.gif
There will be no big deal for you to sell either of the stock Denon's when you choose the winner, and recable the right one.



Majkel,
You mean "recable the right TWO"! The D2000 are going to very difficult for me to let go without first hearing what a recable can do or could have done. : )

Unlike option (a), option (b) is currently within my economic reach.
PAB
 
Jul 10, 2008 at 1:23 PM Post #5 of 32
YMMV so all I can say is how it worked out for me...

1. I bought a new D2000. Even without burn-in, I liked it a lot.
2. Then I bought a new D5000. It arrived physically damaged but worked fine. For all the extra cash, I wasn't sufficiently extra impressed. I returned the D5000.
3. I then sent the D2000 to Alex for a V3 recable. Fantastic. Money well spent.
4. I then buy a Markl MD5000. After a 2-day can-off, I sell the MD5000 and conclude that I'll keep the APS V3 D2000 forever.

I'm way more into the music than the gear but in a nutshell, the MD5000 had great refinement while the APS V3 D2000 had major-league "slam," really one of the best cans I've ever heard.

At the same price point I would always choose the APS V3 D2000 over the stock D5000. But like I said, YMMV.

So there is a data point for you. Hope this helps.

~Jim aka 251
 
Jul 10, 2008 at 1:24 PM Post #6 of 32
Quote:

Originally Posted by pataburd /img/forum/go_quote.gif
I'm at a familiar impasse: after having accrued funds to APS V3 recable the K501, I'm considering using the monies to instead:

(a) put toward the stock D5000,
(b) purchase an already APS V3 recabled pair of D2000.

A/b-ing the stock D2000--which I currently own and immensely enjoy--against either option [(a) or (b)] will be of interest to me. For option (a), I would compare the two major tiers within Denon; for (b), I would be evaluating the effects of the APS V3 on the D2000.

What do you all think would be the better first step?



Can't you PM "Markl" - I think he's tried the recabled D2000s, compared to the D5000s. If I recall correctly, he thought they were very close - that the cable was the most significant difference in their sound (stock D2000s vs stock D5000s). That was one reason, I chose the D5000s over the D2000s - same price, but the wood cups, and no recable hassle... and... I thought it would be more difficult to recover my investment with the recabled D2000s, than the stock D5000s, if I bought them at the "right price" - which I did.
 
Jul 10, 2008 at 4:59 PM Post #7 of 32
No experience with either here, but with my research including lots of reading from your experience with the D2000 patburd, I have ordered the D2000(back ordered of course) with intent to recable w/V3. I do already have wooded 225s so the wood cups on the D5000 don't really interest me, more after "feeling the music" I'm very interested in what you decide to do.
 
Jul 10, 2008 at 5:52 PM Post #8 of 32
Based on what (little) I've read about the D2000 v. D5000 (especially, about the former being more "forward" than the latter), I have a feeling I'd ultimately end up with the recabled D2000, anyway. Economically, option (b) is a "can-do" right now.

Nevertheless, irrespective of final preferences (and my current bias toward the D2000), I would really like to hear the "woody" D5000.
 
Jul 10, 2008 at 6:30 PM Post #9 of 32
I think you are refering to this comparison did by markl. Its on page 28 of this thread:

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f4/how...7/index28.html

Denon D2000 vs. D5000
Many people have asked me what the differences are between the D2000 and the D5000. Well before today, I couldn't really say as I had not yet received one for modification. Now that I've dissected it, mod-ed it, and had a chance to do some listening, I finally have some answers.

From a physical/construction standpoint, here are the differences that I can verify:

1. Cable is different (duh, we all knew this).
2. Cup material is different (double duh).
3. There is a circular strip of material that resembles fiberloft within the D2000 cup (triple duh, we've all seen the pics elsewhere). Of course, in doing the mod, we remove this attempt at damping anyway.
4. However, the D2000 cup is unique in that it has a large circle in the middle of it of extra-thick plastic that makes the cup more rigid than the wooden cup of the D5000:


5. The plastic cups of the D2000 have more deeply recessed screw holes which requires longer screws to attach the ear-cup to the assembly. This means it's unlikely the wooden cups of the D5000 will fit onto a D2000.

6. The outer ring with all the holes in it that the driver itself slots into and is glued into, is plastic on the D2000, instead of metal, as it is on the D5000.

So, that is the extent of the physical differences (obvious to the naked eye) that we can easily see. Yet, as the good folks at Headroom have shown using their elaborate dummy-head measuring system, there are significant differences in the frequency response of the D5000 and D2000:



Do you believe that changing the material of the ear cup, and changing the cable would create this wide a diversion between the two? If so, what we see here is partial "proof positive" that a mere cable swap can radically alter frequency response of a headphone. Headroom have inadvertently proven something cable skeptics have been asking for for years.

Me, I don't think these minor physical differences can account for both the measured and audible differences between these two cans. I strongly suspect that there are actual physical differences between the drivers used in the D2000 and D5000.

Why? Because what you actually hear when you compare the two head-to-head, is *exactly* what Headroom shows. The D2000 is noticeably darker than the D5000, and the bass of the D2000 is audibly lower in level than that of the D5000, just as the graph shows.

I've seen some talk regarding the D5000, including that from the manufacturer themselves, that the wood used in the D5000 contributes to their sound quality. Denon sez:

Quote:
The enclosures employ housings made of natural wood Mahogany with superior acoustic characteristics that are rich with a broad, natural sound. Mahogany is a very popular material for drum making and guitars because of its great integrity and capability to produce very dark, warm tones compared to other more common wood types like maple or birch. Along with its acoustic characteristics, mahogany's light weight makes it an excellent headphone material as well.

A large part of what makes the mod successful is reducing vibrations within the headphone itself. There's a philosophical debate here which boils down to-- should the enclosure create "pleasant" resonances much like the body of a guitar or violin, or, should they be acoustically "dead" and disappear like all speaker designers hope to achieve with the design of their cabinets?

In any case, even after damping the plastic cups of the D2000 and the wooden cups of the D5000, and thus removing a large part of the difference between the two and thus (largely) removing the difference in cup material as a potential variable, there are still clearly audible sonic differences. Does the mod completely damp the cups and totally make the difference between them 100% controlled? No, if you hold your hands up to them you can still easily feel the vibrations through the wood and plastic.

However, the mods ought to eliminate (let's say) at least 50% of any sonic differences between the two, yet they remain fairly stark.

What am I getting at? Again, as much as I believe in the power of wires to change the sound, there is something more profound happening here. I strongly suspect that the D2000 has a different driver than the D5000.

Given the choice between the two, I would much rather listen to the D5000. The D2000 sounds "thinner", a bit more "rinky-dink" and "headphone-y" than the D5000. The D5000 has more body, and the appearance of more extension up top (the D2000 technically has more volume at extreme treble, but the D5000 has several more dbs of emphasis on the upper treble where more musical action actually happens), which gives them more air and sense of space. The D2000 appears to have a bit of a mid-range suck-out, which you can see in the graph, and I think that's the crucial difference. It's a question of EQ, and that means it's largely a question of taste and system matching. Like I said, I prefer the D5000 on my system.

I don't want to leave you with the impression that the differences amount to polar opposites, it's hardly that at all. They don't sound like two different headphones from different manufacturers; there is an obvious family resemblance. But I think most folks would appreciate the D5000 a bit more.

Cheers.
 
Jul 11, 2008 at 12:09 AM Post #12 of 32
Quote:

Originally Posted by TwoFiveOne /img/forum/go_quote.gif
YMMV so all I can say is how it worked out for me...

1. I bought a new D2000. Even without burn-in, I liked it a lot.
2. Then I bought a new D5000. It arrived physically damaged but worked fine. For all the extra cash, I wasn't sufficiently extra impressed. I returned the D5000.
3. I then sent the D2000 to Alex for a V3 recable. Fantastic. Money well spent.
4. I then buy a Markl MD5000. After a 2-day can-off, I sell the MD5000 and conclude that I'll keep the APS V3 D2000 forever.

I'm way more into the music than the gear but in a nutshell, the MD5000 had great refinement while the APS V3 D2000 had major-league "slam," really one of the best cans I've ever heard.

At the same price point I would always choose the APS V3 D2000 over the stock D5000. But like I said, YMMV.

So there is a data point for you. Hope this helps.

~Jim aka 251




J251,
Thanks for the valuable case study. In the back of my mind, I suspect I may prefer the D2000, too.
PAB
 
Jul 11, 2008 at 1:51 AM Post #13 of 32
Well, I owned both the D2000 and D5000, unfortunately not at the same time, but even so there is a noticeable difference in these two headphones from a sound/performance perspective. Is it attributed to the cable and wooden housings? Probably so, I suspect the drivers are the same as has been posted many times before. Having never heard the APS cable D2000's it's hard to give you any real advice about those, but if I were spending my money, it would be for the D5000's hand down.
 
Jul 11, 2008 at 2:37 AM Post #14 of 32
They use the same driver, period. That was posted here multiple times, same fostex part number. Denon confirmed that too. Surprising to hear that speculation from the MOT who supposedly modded quite a few and saw the actual driver in both. Where is that "I strongly suspect that the D2000 has a different driver than the D5000." getting to? Just open them up and look.
 
Jul 11, 2008 at 3:06 AM Post #15 of 32
Andrew_WOT, that quote was taken from an old post.

From my point of view, the issue is still a tad muddy. Looking at two of them right now, and while they share one serial number "439360", they also have different numbers on the back. D5000 says "7HN", D2000 says "7H7". I suspect that is related in some way to the 7N copper of the cables, but it isn't clear to me why they would feel the need to label the two drivers differently, if they are the same thing. It wouldn't matter whether a worker picked up a "D2000" or "D5000" driver to attach the cable to, they are the same.

Also as far as "Denon" stating they are the same driver, I wonder who they spoke to, the design team or a receptionist or some sales guy in a cubicle farm in India?

I don't know for certain whether or not they use the same driver (though it's likely), it's all but immaterial anyway, as the headroom graphs clearly show what your ears will tell you, which is they have a very distinct sound whatever the source of the difference.

Some people are going to prefer D2000, others, the D5000.
smily_headphones1.gif
 

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