[isotope240]

Quote:

Originally posted by andrzejpw so, what's wrong with the cd player? Paid too much for it? So, you've changed your mind, and want to pay less?

must stay on topic must stay on topic must stay on topic

umm....
so how about those small high-end audio stores?

 

[Tuberoller]

we should maintain this thread as a working example of thread crapping.This is rediculous guys.

 

[MacDEF]

Sorry to DanG for this thread getting so off-topic. That said, the stuff below is just begging for a logical, economics-based response

I'll reply to Dan in my next post...

Quote:

Originally posted by isotope240 i have made many purchases in my life. we all have. do you think that we havent already been paying for people who run scams like the one i am considering? hell, i've probably paid hundreds of dollars to cover such costs, and i really see no problem with joining in to get something out of it. like i said, if it makes the prices go up for everyone else, i dont really give a damn.

This is one of the most flawed and ignorant arguments I've yet heard about retail ("ignorant" in the dictionary definition of the word, not the pejorative usage). This kind of behavior screws not just other people, but yourself.

The scams you describe are actually quite analogous to what is known in economics as "The Tragedy of the Commons." To put it in layman's terms, there's a set of goods that everyone can enjoy. As long as everyone plays by the rules and doesn't take advantage of the system, it works great. However, because of the way the system is set up, it seems rational to each individual to say "I'm not hurting anyone by taking more than my share, since there's plenty to go around." Yet the dilemma is that if everyone thinks that way, the system collapses under the load. The "logical" loophole does nothing in the end but screw everyone, including those taking advantage of it.

Business set up liberal return policies as a service to customers. The idea is that if a customer is truly unhappy with a purchase, they can return it for a full refund. Assuming that most users are honest, the business adds a small amount of overhead onto each product sold to pay for the money lost by people returning items (since returned items have to be sold below the original price). When everyone is honest, the amount of the per-item surcharge is very small, and everyone gets good prices.

However, the way the system is set up, people like you can take advantage of the system by buying something and then returning it with the intention of buying it back again at the "returned goods" price. You even try to rationalize it because this is a "huge chain store" with millions or billions of dollars in gross revenue. Yet the dilemma is that the more people like you taking advantage of this customer service, the more expensive it is for the business to offer that service. The business can respond in several ways: raising prices across the board to cover the increased costs; providing a disincentive to returning items (such as a 10% restocking fee), or discontinuing the return policy altogether.

So you -- yes you -- end up in a situation where either a) you can't take advantage of this loophole any more because the return policy is gone; b) it's not worth it to take advantage of it, because the restocking fee is as much as or more than the money you would save from your scam; or c) because of all these scams, prices across the board rise, so that some product that you buy, then return, then buy again at a discount ends up costing the same as it would had you bought it new before the price increases.

It's difficult to argue that your scam is not dishonest in and of itself. But even if you fool yourself into thinking that it's "honest," the fact is that you're only screwing yourself in the long run.


Quote:

Originally posted by isotope240 what? how the screw is it fraudulent? when i puchased that cd player, my receipt said the following: "If something's not right or you've simply changed your mind, please bring it back within 30 days so we can either exchange it or give you your money back." i'm not going to damage the cd player; i am just going to take it back in the same condition i purchased it in. i have a right to do that. i also have a right to go buy it back when they discount it. what is the problem? they are circuit city's rules, i am just using the rules to my own advantage. what in the hell is wrong with that?

Um... returning it within 30 days is perfectly acceptable, since that's what the 30-day return policy is for. What's "fraudulent" is going back the next day and re-buying it as a "demo" or "return."

The return policy exists so that customers who aren't happy with their purchase can get their money back. The fact is that you aren't unhappy with your purchase, and you don't want your money back -- you WANT the DVD player, you just want it for cheaper. Geesh! It's already an amazing product for the price you paid for it, and you want it for cheaper?

 

[MacDEF]

DanG, I'm kind of split on this; on the one hand, it's undeniable that MANY higher-end audio dealers are jerks who won't give you the time of day unless you have a certain appearance and a platinum card. On the other hand, many hard working dealers are really getting tired of being used by customers who just want to audition their gear and then either buy the gear online for cheaper, or low-ball them by threatening to buy it online unless the dealer meets the price. There was actually a major discussion, over several issues, in the Stereophile "letters" section on this very topic (best part of the magazine, IMO

).

It sounds like your situation was a little of both -- the guy probably already had a prejudice against people who look like you looked in your jeans and t-shirt, then you asked him to lower his price. That doesn't excuse his behavior, but I can also understand it. I think it's a challenge for dealers nowadays to not be cynical about things like this. It wasn't YOUR fault, but you're suffering because of all the jerks who screw dealers like this.

On a related note, I actually think that many dealers are backwards in their thinking about kids/young people. The see someone who is young, and maybe not dressed in expensive clothes, andthey immediately see a kid trying to rip them off. I would argue that this stereotype belongs with older people rather than younger people... let me explain that

Granted, if you're a high-end retailer (of any kind of product), you're rationally going to be more receptive to people wearing expensive clothes and whose appearance tells you that they have money. And you're going to be reluctant to "waste time" on someone you think isn't a serious shopper. Yet the truth is that in general there is a difference between someone who is 50, wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and can't afford an expensive system asking about $2000 CD players and someone who is 20, wearing jeans and a t-shirt, and can barely afford an $800 CD player. The difference is potential. Someone who is 50 years old and can't afford high-end stuff probably isn't going to ever be able to afford it (or at least not for a long time). Someone who is 20 and is trying to get a good deal on a piece of equipment is someone who is obviously interested in high-end audio. PLUS... they'll get older, they'll make more money, and they'll eventually buy more stuff. In short, the young kid in jeans and a t-shirt trying to get a good price on a CD player might someday be the 30- or 35-year-old wearing nice clothes with a platinum card looking to buy a $10,000 or $20,000 system. And that kid is going to remember who treated him well. Today's "kids buying high-end stuff" are the future of the high-end. Treating them badly without giving them the benefit of the doubt is shooting yourself in the foot, and is also bad for high-end audio in general.

 

[Jeff Guidry]

MacDEF's ideas are quite close to mine in this regard. I have always had the theory that most people "save a dollar today to lose ten tomorrow". Meaning, they think they are saving time and effort by taking a shortcut i.e. not serving the 'poor' customer. But someone who is just looking today may come in tomorrow, next week, next month and buy $10,000 worth of equipment.

For me the bottom line is this: it is in YOUR BEST INTEREST to educate every single person who walks into your store about the product you sell. The buyer may come in for a little purchase today, a bigger purchase tomorrow, and, if you have built a good relationship, will tell others of the positive experience you have.

Case in point: I went to a certain hi-fi store here in LA to audition Grado headphones. The young salesman there was quite helpful and allowed me to take and audition all the headphones they had for sale at my leisure, and even allowed my to use his personal CD collection to listen to many different types of music. I ended up buying the headphones elsewhere, but when I wanted some replacement earpads, instead of buying them on line cheaper, I went in to their store to pick them up, remembering how accomodating they were.

Well, the sweet story turns sour here. A guy who appeared to be the owner of the store was wrangling with two people who were obviously big bucks buyers who wanted to have a receiver that was not in stock TODAY. (the closest one was apparently in Orange County). Even the salesmen who were not engaged in the transaction had a different attitude than the first time I came in, they seemed to be in full ******** mode, and the one I spoke to on the phone seemed not to remember that I had called and asked him just a few minutes before if they had any replacement earpads in stock.

I paid them in cash, but they didn't have sufficient change to handle a twenty dollar bill (?). They inquired of the owner guy for change. The two he was wrangling with had stepped out of the store for a moment. Without looking up, he produced the change from the wallet and tossed it on the counter in front of me and stumped off.

Needless to say, I was unimpressed with their service, and I will never darken their doorstep again.

 

[millerdog]

As a former car salesman:
Never pre-qualify a customer. Just make sure he likes the car.
Treat everyone that walks on the lot as a qualified customer, regardless of how he or she looks.
Always think you can sell a car to that person.
And as in the movie "Glengarry Glenross," always be closing!
ABC!

Sounds like Dan and others walked into some real losers. I did this for eight years and well....I've seen some real losers.
A person I know, dressed in casual Hawaiian clothes, t shirt, shorts, slippers...walked onto a Dodge lot with $20,000 in a paper bag. I was selling Nissans at the time. No one would talk to him. He really wanted a Dodge. He was so pissed he bought a truck from me.
I had customers who didn't look like they could afford a Sentra..they ended up getting a $28,000 Pathfinder demo.
The sad truth is that there are really ****ty salesmen out there. If you think you got one, ask to work with someone else.
As far as retail stores go...yes! the salespeople suck! Lack of training I think. Perhaps here in HI, it's different, cause we all dress casual. I was a frequent customer of Tiffany's and was treated nicely wearing shorts and a t shirt. Same as walking into Cartier(one of my greatest faux pas "is that silver? No, that's platinum" ohoh!).
High end retail sales is a bitch. Everyone automatically thinks you have a high profit margin. When I left the car business in 1997, average profit on a new vehicle was $800. On a $12,000 car, the profit is less than 1 percent. Yes, we used to give some away; on others we hit home runs and broke some legs. It all averages out.
As a car salesmen, this is how we make our living. We get paid a minimal salary to hang around the lot in hopes of making a sale. In some stores, you get paid in what's called a draw. Meaning, if you don't sell what your draw is, you have to pay the company back. In other stores you work straight commission. There is pressure in sales, especially if you are on commission.

Like I said, most of you seemed to have met ****ty salespeople. Instead of being insulted, ask for their manager(I was one for three years; had a team of at least three to six sales people working for me) and I guarantee, he or she will talk turkey. First of all, once a manager is introduced, it means you are at least half serious. The manager got promoted cause he or she was an excellent salesperson so they know what they are doing. If you are serious about a purchase, the manager or assistant manager is the fastest way to the bottom line.
As a side note, how many of you have had a salesperson ask you if you needed any help, you told them no, then asked them a question? Typical.
If I had a dollar for every customer who told me "I'm just looking," I could finance my new home system.

Discounted commission sales suck. Remember, you want what we have, and when you buy, you put food on our table. The thing is, don't buy from anyone, but buy from the salesperson who led you hand and foot through all of your questions. Buy from the person who didn't offer promises, but from the person who said what he/she could or could not do. If you leave, then return to buy, make sure you ask for the same person. In other words, buy from a professional salesperson. In the long run, they'll take care of you.
Retail sales? that's why I went back to school.
md

 

[mbriant]

DanG,

Since we've only heard your side of the story, I think the accused deserves some sort of defence.

You have to realize that although the particular sales rep you dealt with is a representitive of that store, he is an individual. You shouldn't judge the store entirely from that one encounter. You yourself said that other sales reps in the same store had previously been very helpful.

Perhaps he was simply having a bad day. Perhaps he was sick and tired of arguing with bargain hunting customers. ( they can be unbelievably frustrating) Perhaps he had just finished dealing with the customer from hell and was at the end of his rope. (Some people can be extremely unreasonable with their expectations.) Perhaps he had recently been chastised by his boss for selling something at too big of a discount. Perhaps he had just been diagnosed with cancer. Any number of pressures may have been on his shoulders when you walked up and started talking "discount". His percieved slight to you may have happened solely due to bad timing.

I can remember getting severely pissed off at the 5th or 6th "customer" in a row who at a garage sale I held, would look at a $10 item's $0.25 price sticker and say " I'll give you $0.10 for it. This particular guy had done the same thing as several others before him without incident, but I had reached my limit at that moment and he took the brunt of it.

Sales reps are human too.

It seems you have two issues with the salesman you dealt with.

1) He wasn't willing to reduce the price to where you wanted it to be.

2) He responded to your attempt to get a bigger discount with "We don't operate on the barter system here".

He did however willingly offer a 10% discount to you right at the start. This is more than some stores would do. Perhaps 10% is the maximum he was allowed to discount on that particular item. You had obviously gone to the store with a predetermined discount set in your mind. When things didn't turn out like you'd planned, you left in a huff. Retailers do have the right to set their own prices.

His use of the term barter was simply a matter of semantics. The word he was looking for was obviously "haggle" or "dicker". If it makes you feel better to label him an uneducated moron because of a poor choice of words, that's your business. I don't think it's a major factor in any of this however.

The fact that someone else was able to haggle over a different product, with a different sales rep, on a different day, doesn't guarantee your experience will be identical. If it were the identical product and you knew for a fact someone else had recently received 20% off, yes you should be pissed at only 10%. But when you're not comparing apples to apples........

I have no doubt this guy pre-qualified you in his own mind....( it's human nature....especially for sales reps who earn their living from selling...not simply giving good P.R.) perhaps because of your age, perhaps because of your attire, or perhaps because of your demeanour.

At the end of day, you weren't happy with the way this rep handled you, and because of this he lost a sale.

Or did he?

Quote:

In any case I don't think I'll be buying that player at all... my impressions will be posted in the Amps and Source components forum.

It would seem that even had you purchased the CD player from him at the price you wanted, you likely would have returned it anyway.

 

[lucien]

after wading through two pages of total shyte, colour me impressed that the thread somehow got back on track...

___


my position is this: i don't pay the full retail for electronics, and i don't make a nuisance of myself by haggling constantly.

there are one or two audio dealers i make a habit of visiting. almost everything i buy will come from one of them if they sell what i'm after.

when i'm ready to buy, i ask for the best price they can offer me. if the offer seems reasonable, i buy the product. if not, i thank them for their time and leave, or look at something cheaper.

neither of those dealers has ever gotten ****ty with me for failing to buy. i believe it's because i don't waste their time. sometimes i audition things out of my price range, but i make sure never to occupy the rep's time unnecessarily, when they could be helping another customer.

if they treat you like dirt, complain to the management and leave. or just leave.

but if they treat you well, why would you be upset that they wanted to make a profit on a sale?

 

[Jeff Guidry]

Quote:

Originally posted by lucien after wading through two pages of total shyte, colour me impressed that the thread somehow got back on track...

I personally apologize for wasting your time. Colour me sorry...

 

[mbriant]

This term keeps cropping up here and in other threads. "If only I had been treated with respect such and such a store would have a valued customer for life".

Studies have shown that TRUE customer loyalty is a dying entity. It was an important part of business strategy years ago, but these days there are simply too many places a consumer can shop for any given item.

Sure, it still exists to a certain degree, but let's face it....price has become by far the consumers' foremost concern. A store may have treated you like a king for years, but sooner or later you'll find the same item elsewhere for a few bucks less and that loyalty goes right out the window.

The best a retailer can hope for is getting first crack at giving the lowest price......like this particular thread illustrates.

In many cases this is actually a disadvantage because the consumer can now go price shopping armed with your best price. Chances are good someone else will beat your price and get the sale.

When it comes to customer loyalty everyone talks the talk.....but very few actually walk the walk.

 

[DanG]

M, I think your explanation is probably the correct one, but I don't think I simply would have returned the player. It's possible that my opinion of the CD player is now lowered after that experience which I acknowledge is partly my fault. But had I bought it, I'd be just another hyping Head-Fier convincing people how good the player was as though I were selling it. That and the next day I left for college which is three and a half hours away, making a return within 30 days nearly impossible.

I don't know if I mentioned this before, but I specifically asked for the guy who had been showing me the player before since he had helped me set-up my headphone amp and headphones into the large case of CD players and amps that included the 308. The salesman who came up to me told me that they didn't work on commission and that he could take care of me.

Does this sound suspicious? I didn't know about this minimum-sales deal, maybe he was mincing words even worse than I was to take the sale? Or is it possible some sales reps are hired with no incentive, or maybe it's a floor commission?

It didn't seem like the salesman who came up to me later wanted to have the business given to someone else. I would have asked for the guy who had helped A&M and me before but he wasn't around that day (it was Labor Day).

Point being, as you said, who knows what was going on. In any case, spending so much of the money I earned this summer on a CD player would have been silly of me anyway, so I guess I should thank the mutton-chopped person.

 

[mbriant]

Quote:

so I guess I should thank the mutton-chopped person.

LOL ..... every cloud has a silver lining.

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanG This particular dealership has two stores and three-four salesmen on average at the store I was visiting. I wasn't particularly "pissed" at the guy not willing to sell for a lower price, I was just somewhat taken aback by the way I was treated considering that I was generally treated better by the other salesmen there (I hadn't seen this one before).

people who are "somewhat taken aback" ask for another salesperson to help them; people who are pissed storm out of the store and vow to never go there again. this is just the way i see it though.

Quote:

I don't see how your story about asking for permission to steal business is applicable in this case..

i guess i wasted my time then. i thought i painted a pretty clear picture of the whole point i was trying to make, but perhaps, as usual, i failed wonderfully. here's another attempt at something of the equivalent:
say i ask eric343 to build me a meta42. we talk about prices and he says "okay, with labor and parts that'll cost $200." i say "hmm, that's not what i'm willing to pay, make it cheaper." eric says back to me "i only charged you ten dollars for labor and the rest is just part sales, if i lower it anymore i'll lose money selling it to you." then i say "bah! i'll take my business elsewhere then!"

(on the contrary, eric builds wonderful amps at wonderful prices; sorry to bring you into this eric.

)

Quote:

..I asked for a better price and was not given one, so I left.

so you wanted something you couldn't afford.. welcome to the club. i can go into a porsche dealership and tell the guy that i heard i can buy a new boxster for $4k and when he says "sorry, those start at around $48k" i too can storm out of the store and complain on an internet forum that they didn't give me a better price. so you weren't treated fairly, welcome to my world.

you should also consider your source. how many times have you read on audio asylum that cables don't make a difference?

Quote:

Regarding online purchasing -- I would have been happy to do so except that I specifically wanted to give this store my business. I don't have the cash to pay their asking price but I was willing to buy for not much less ($1250, just $100 less, was probably my limit).

wow, i guess i really didn't get to you. do you understand that while it's $100 to you, it's $100 to someone else too? $100 could be that weeks' grocery money for his (or more likely the owner's) family. when you're bargaining, you're dealing directly with their profits.

either way, it seems this all happened for the best and i hope you enjoy your new source (whatever you decide on).

 

[DanG]

Quote:

Originally posted by grinch people who are "somewhat taken aback" ask for another salesperson to help them; people who are pissed storm out of the store and vow to never go there again. this is just the way i see it though.

I think it would be unfair to characterize my reaction as storming out of the store.

Quote:

i guess i wasted my time then. i thought i painted a pretty clear picture of the whole point i was trying to make, but perhaps, as usual, i failed wonderfully. here's another attempt at something of the equivalent: say i ask eric343 to build me a meta42. we talk about prices and he says "okay, with labor and parts that'll cost $200." i say "hmm, that's not what i'm willing to pay, make it cheaper." eric says back to me "i only charged you ten dollars for labor and the rest is just part sales, if i lower it anymore i'll lose money selling it to you." then i say "bah! i'll take my business elsewhere then!"

The reason your first example did not apply to the situation is that I was not taking business from the store by stealing customers and reducing the amount of stock sold -- I was asking for a lower price and when I didn't get one, I said that I wasn't willing to buy for the price they had.

The example you supply now is closer to applicable except that I was not told the costs involved or given any explanation; furthermore, I'm not making demands on anyone. You're dramatizing the situation to an extreme degree -- in fact, to the point where you're not even addressing the situation at hand.

Quote:

so you wanted something you couldn't afford.. welcome to the club. i can go into a porsche dealership and tell the guy that i heard i can buy a new boxster for $4k and when he says "sorry, those start at around $48k" i too can storm out of the store and complain on an internet forum that they didn't give me a better price. so you weren't treated fairly, welcome to my world.

Again, you're not addressing the situation whatsoever. As I said, I wasn't offering $50 for the item, I was asking if the dealer was willing to go lower. No need to start being silly and offer further unrelated analogies that are blown far out of proportion.

Quote:

wow, i guess i really didn't get to you. do you understand that while it's $100 to you, it's $100 to someone else too? $100 could be that weeks' grocery money for his (or more likely the owner's) family. when you're bargaining, you're dealing directly with their profits.

I don't think it's possible to get to anyone by providing poor examples and by dramatizing everything to a ridiculous degree. And I don't buy the grocery ******** -- I doubt that employee was worried that his boss would starve to death if he explained to me calmly that the price given was as low as he would go as opposed to telling me that he wouldn't haggle.

Quote:

either way, it seems this all happened for the best and i hope you enjoy your new source (whatever you decide on).

Thank you.

I realize that it's possible that your dramatizations are a result of my dramatization of the issue in the first place -- I suppose that's what I get for sounding like I was bitching in public. The intent behind my original post, though, was not to bitch but to ask for possible explanations of the way different high-end audio dealerships work -- when they'll haggle, when they won't; when they'll judge by appearance, and when by something else, and so on. Thanks everyone for your responses.

 

[grinch]

Quote:

Originally posted by DanG I think it would be unfair to characterize my reaction as storming out of the store.

of course this is a completely subjective argument, but i feel that if you are leaving a building/room/store because you are upset about something you just found out.. you're "storming" out.

Quote:

The reason your first example did not apply to the situation is that I was not taking business from the store by stealing customers and reducing the amount of stock sold -- I was asking for a lower price and when I didn't get one, I said that I wasn't willing to buy for the price they had.

though i found my example completely obvious, let me spell it out for you:i was not accusing you of stealing from the store. i was using that as an example of how you wished to pay less for the item and therefore are giving less funds to the overall profit. i'm sure the profit margin is a bit higher in high-end audio than it is for flowers, but i still think it holds an at least decent example of the idea of running a store.

Quote:

The example you supply now is closer to applicable except that I was not told the costs involved or given any explanation; furthermore, I'm not making demands on anyone. You're dramatizing the situation to an extreme degree -- in fact, to the point where you're not even addressing the situation at hand.

your opinion is understood, but not agreed with.

Quote:

Again, you're not addressing the situation whatsoever. As I said, I wasn't offering $50 for the item, I was asking if the dealer was willing to go lower. No need to start being silly and offer further unrelated analogies that are blown far out of proportion.

etc. etc. etc.

Quote:

And I don't buy the grocery ******** -- I doubt that employee was worried that his boss would starve to death if he explained to me calmly that the price given was as low as he would go as opposed to telling me that he wouldn't haggle.

well aren't we hung up on symantics. i'm not saying the salesman acted nicely, but i am saying that he acted normally. either way, i wasn't attempting to convey the owner starving to death; i was trying to spell out to you where that extra hundred dollars could be going, it doesn't matter if it's for his children's medical bills or putting gas in his car. but let's ignore that idea and say that the owner can afford groceries, okay?

Quote:

I realize that it's possible that your dramatizations are a result of my dramatization of the issue in the first place -- I suppose that's what I get for sounding like I was bitching in public. The intent behind my original post, though, was not to bitch but to ask for possible explanations of the way different high-end audio dealerships work -- when they'll haggle, when they won't; when they'll judge by appearance, and when by something else, and so on.

the world is not working for you, it is always working against you. people will judge you by every imaginable detail of how you present yourself and they will act on those judgements. this does not make it right, but it happens.

kinda funny to remember, but i believe i was your age (funny how big a change those two years is) when i got into this huge argument with my dad's fiance over this exact sort of thing. she told me that she would never hire somebody if she knew they had a tattoo because it "just seems irresponsible." i blew up at her. how could personal taste define the person's ability to do their job correctly? we argued and argued and she never changed her mind about how she felt. now she is head of human resources for one of the largest international banking firms in the world and i'm sure she feels the same way about it.

i'm sorry you had such a bad experience, but i can guarantee it will not be your first.