[slwiser]

Who came: slwiser, thrice, SK138
Location: SK138 home:

Reason for getting together:

We got together so that SK138 could hear the HA5000 before deciding on the purchase of this unit or the Rockhopper. Hopefully, he came away knowing a little more about which unit will supply his sound. This meets notice was very short notice since SK138 is going out of town for a while on business. It was going to be only us but we opened it up at the last minute since we had such a nice equipment layout. We are sorry about not giving you more time but it turned out as being a very good meet for the three of us.

This get together was a very intimate setting where I got to listen to several pieces of equipment in a focused way. Note a complete equipment list has been placed below. SK138 's music preferences is very much like my own. We both enjoy the female vocal sound as well as the sound of the instrumental music. Specifically, on a short list, I enjoy Diana Krall, Take6, Hiroshima, George Wilson types of sound. For a more detailed list check out my profile. It is apparent that we both have discovered that the Audio-Technica sound does something for us that either the Grado or Sennhieser house sounds doesn't. My general impression of the AT house sound is that it provides a more emotive environment compared to the much more up-front Grado or the laid back sound of the Sennhieser. For me, the AT sound gives be the best of what either of the others provides.

Set-ups compared were:

AT-W5000 stock and recabled (Black Dragon) feed by the MF A3.24 or Lavry into either the HA5000/Rockhopper/MapleTree.

The AT-A900LTDs were also compared with this set of equipment but not as extensively as the W5000s. Since the W5000 seem to be the one headphone we (slwiser and SK138) both have at this time decided as our primary listening use. I did not hear much difference between the stock and the balance A900LTD out of the Lavry's balanced output. Going back to when I had both together, at home under ideal conditions (meaning completely relax and over an extended period) I could hear some differences such as the balanced sound being a bit more detailed compared with a stock version. But not so much that I would suggest anyone doing this if they were only using the Lavry's balanced output. I would think there would be more of a difference using a true balanced amplifier instead of the Lavry's XLR output.

Finally we brought in the AT-W100 with the L3000 drivers. (WOW, drivers do make a difference). Very nice sound indeed...I could enjoy these as my only cans if this were my situation. This unit seems to have the extension of the W5000 with punchier bass and lusher sound (read not as detailed/precise). If anyone finds on their hands a set of these drivers let me know.

Everything was powered out of the PowerVAR unit. And the ultimate music sound was an Apple G5 using AAC reference material from SK138. We also listened to my iHP-140 at first before setting the equipment up for comparisons.

The differences between the stock and recabled W5000s were small if I could hear any differnce I am not sure. I have always been a bit of a skeptic of my ability of hear the level of detail coming from different high end equipment.

MF A3.24 vs. Lavry DA10:

What I found interesting surprising is that I could tell the difference between when the HA5000 in the train was supplied by either the Lavry or the MF A3.24. With everything the same except the DACs, the Lavry sounded more lush and smooth compared with the sound using the MF A3.24. The MF A3.24 sounded very nice and detailed. Both were very good and I could live with either sound. It gets down to the emotive nature of the sound that I prefer.

AT-HA5000 vs. Rockhopper vs. MapleTree vs. Gilmore V2 Reference:

Another surprise was when we set the equipment up only out of the MF A3.24. Here feeding either the HA5000 or the Rockhopper the sound of very similar. This may be because of the design and use of the MOSFETs in both. It appears to me that the HA5000 was the most transparent amp in the mix during the met. Meaning that I could hear the differences better while using it than with any other amp used. Using the HA5000 vs the Gilmore it is clear that the Gilmore provides a more detail precise sound while the HA5000/Rockhopper goes with lush, smooth. With either the HA5000 or Rockhopper, I am pulled into the music while listening with my W5000s. The MapleTree's is very similar sound to the HA5000. I did not listen to it as much as the other two. The two amps that I prefer here are the HA5000 and the Rockhopper. My slightly biased preference is the HA5000 since it was mine and my ownership of that unit may have something to do with that selection.

When the Lavry's headamp was compared with the HA5000, the Lavry's headamp did not embarrass itself at all. The Lavry as a single combine unit is a real surprise at the level that it can be compared and not embarrass itself. I have had this unit since early in the year and it is well burned in now. If I had not gotten such a good deal on the HA5000, I probably would remained very happy using my Lavry's headamp.

The AD2000 were very nice but just failed to do for me what my W5000 does. Note to anyone who cares: I really enjoy/need a closed headphone.

This sums up my impressions at yesterday's met at SK138's home. Hopefully these were not to disarranged for you to understand them. I want to thank SK138 for his hospitality and the pizza that his wife went out to got for us. SK138, thank her for her part in making this one really enjoyable day. Our conversations around the table while eating Pizza really made my day.

Gear list for our quick get together at SK138 home:

Headphones:
AT-W100 with L3000 drivers (thrice) [corrected from the original posed listing from W1000]
AT-W5000 (stock) (slwiser)
AT-W5000 (Black Dragon) (SK138)
AT-A900LTD (stock) (SK138)
AT-A900LTD (balanced) (slwiser)
AT-AD2000 (Fitz)
AKG K81DJ (slwiser)
iGrado (SK138)
Koss KSC-75 (SK138)
Koss KSC-35 (SK138)

Source / DAC:
Musical Fidelity A3.24 upsampler (SK138)
Lavry DA10 (slwiser)
Curcio Audio Engineering Tube DAC (SK138)
Apple PowerMac G5 with ITunes Library (SK138)
NEC Multispin 6x External CD Player (SK138)
RedWine Audio iMod 4G 60gig iPod (SK138)
iHP-140 (slwiser)

Amps:
Upgraded (blackgate caps/silver wire) Gilmore V2-SE (SK138)
Rockhopper Audio M^3 Amp (thrice)
Audio Technica HA5000 (slwiser)
Mapletree Ear + Purist HD with various tubes (TiTaN)
Xin SuperMacro 3V6 (SK138)
Headamp AE-1 (slwiser)

Power:
POWERVAR 12 (SK138)

Cable:
pair of XLR to RCA Enigma cables (slwiser)

 

[roy_jones]

Thanks for the impressions. I'm really interested to hear more about the W100 with L3000 drivers, as I've got a pair enroute that should be here hopefully in a couple of weeks. I've also got a W5000 that should be arriving at the same time, and I'm curious how they'll compare. I am trying to get a feel for how close the W3000's come to the L3000...having not heard the L3000.

I am guessing I'm going to prefer the sound signature of the W3000, because it's supposedly darker, and I listen mostly to rock music, but then again, I've read that the W5000 does well with rock because of it's speed of attack.

 

[SK138]

First of all...I can't thank slwiser enough for driving several hours to come to my home for our micro meet. I am also extremely grateful that thrice came despite his busy schedule. In the end, thrice walked away few pounds lighter

It was an intimate meeting where we got to know each other and shared more than head-fi related topics. At the end of the day...slwsier and thrice is a wonderful gentlemen that loves this hobby.

Secondly, I want to thank Fitz and TiTaN. I sold Fitz my AD2000 but he agreed to let us use it for the meet. TiTaN purchased my Mapletree Ear + Purist HD amp and also agreed to let us audition it for the meet as well. Both great Head-Fiers eagerly waiting their new gear.

Wow...slwiser...you captured my assessment of equipments used 100%. I loved the "little" Lavry for pumping out beautiful, big, smooth, sound....just wow. It was Lavry that made the HA5000 amp so great. I was surprised how powerful and transparent HA5000 is. Not to mention it matches my work table wood tone

slwiser's AKG K81DJ was surprisingly good value...I would say better than my iGrado.

I was also shocked how good the Rockhopper Audio's maxed out M^3 sounds with my neutral sounding MF A3.24. It added enough bass and treble extension, and smoothness to make me not want to replace my MF A3.24 with Lavry and HA5000. In the end, I was not going to let thrice leave with this amp...I purchased it

thrice brought another surprised with him; W100 with L3000 drivers. I see why people lust after L3000. It's smooth yet detailed sounding . It's not as "dark" sounding as I thought. It's very smooth and silky sounding without sibilance. I will be looking out for one of these for sure. I hope I don't listen to R10, or balanced R10 (ouch!)...I might have to sell my car for that one

Once again...thank you slwiser and thrice for coming at the last minute. Thank you Fitz and TiTaN for letting me keep your gears little longer. I thoroughly enjoyed our meet.

Some more pictures:

 

[SK138]

First of all, you are very lucky to get a W3000 and W5000

W3000 does have more bass but I would say W5000 has the "SLAM" factor with proper amping. I would not characterize W3000 as "dark" sounding like SennHD650. It's more refined and smoother than SennHD650 (single ended, not balanced) with tigher and deeper bass without the "veil".

Did I say...you are one lucky head-fier

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones Thanks for the impressions. I'm really interested to hear more about the W100 with L3000 drivers, as I've got a pair enroute that should be here hopefully in a couple of weeks. I've also got a W5000 that should be arriving at the same time, and I'm curious how they'll compare. I am trying to get a feel for how close the W3000's come to the L3000...having not heard the L3000. I am guessing I'm going to prefer the sound signature of the W3000, because it's supposedly darker, and I listen mostly to rock music, but then again, I've read that the W5000 does well with rock because of it's speed of attack.

 

[purk]

Keep the impression coming guys.


Quote:

I am trying to get a feel for how close the W3000's come to the L3000...having not heard the L3000.

I'm not sure how close it is but my W2002's with L3000's drivers (AKA "Hybrid") still doesn't sound as smooth nor fatigue free like my L3000. However, the hybrid is definitely more extend in the treble and definitely faster.

After taking aparts my W2002 and L3000 several times, I noticed that the W2002 and L3000 share identical parts inside the wooden cups. Both headphones use identical size, shape, material for wooden cups, however, they are differ only in acoustic dampening material. Both even share the same parts for monting the drivers. The W2002's damping is sponge-like, while the L3000 has a cotton-like material used as the acoustic treatment inside the cups. Therefore, I'm a assuming my hybrid will sound closer to the L3000 to Thrice's W100 w/ L3000 drivers as the W100 uses different shape/size cups, acoustic dampening material, and cable.

Purk

 

[Veniogenesis]

Oh my goodness. How did I miss a DC/MD/VA meet again?

I just happened to come back to the DC area for Fall Break on the 6th and I'm leaving tomorrow. Wow!

Looks like you guys had an awesome time.

Cheers,
Venio

 

[SK138]

Sorry...it really was short noticed.

We really had some major AT love going on

It was fun!!!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Veniogenesis Oh my goodness. How did I miss a DC/MD/VA meet again? I just happened to come back to the DC area for Fall Break on the 6th and I'm leaving tomorrow. Wow! Looks like you guys had an awesome time. Cheers, Venio

 

[SK138]

purk...that's very interesting. Inside W5000...the dampening material is like insulation fiber glass material. I hate to think drivers are all same execpt for $0.10 dampening material..and some wood and leather outside

Quote:

Originally Posted by purk Keep the impression coming guys. I'm not sure how close it is but my W2002's with L3000's drivers (AKA "Hybrid") still doesn't sound as smooth nor fatigue free like my L3000. However, the hybrid is definitely more extend in the treble and definitely faster. After taking aparts my W2002 and L3000 several times, I noticed that the W2002 and L3000 share identical parts inside the wooden cups. Both headphones use identical size, shape, material for wooden cups, however, they are differ only in acoustic dampening material. Both even share the same parts for monting the drivers. The W2002's damping is sponge-like, while the L3000 has a cotton-like material used as the acoustic treatment inside the cups. Therefore, I'm a assuming my hybrid will sound closer to the L3000 to Thrice's W100 w/ L3000 drivers as the W100 uses different shape/size cups, acoustic dampening material, and cable. Purk

 

[roy_jones]

Thanks for the feedback.

purk, it's interesting to hear your observations given that you've actually taken apart both sets of headphones to see what their internals look like. I dug up an old thread about my specific pair, and I was surprised to see that initially AK_zip had tried the drivers in a W1000 housing because it more closely matched the physical characteristics of the L3000, but it didn't sound very good according to his experimentation. It doesn't sound as though your hybrid pair is necessarily 'worse' than the L3000, so much as it is different, in being more balanced towards the high end of the spectrum. Maybe that's not true, and I would imagine there would be an element of refinement in the L3000's that would not be possible in a frankenphone.

Apparently the pair I'm getting has got a custom cable job as well, so hopefully that helps the overall sound.

I'm taking a bit of a risk. I listen to mostly rock, and was pretty much set and determined that I was going to get a pair of RS-1's, as I'm more familiar and comfortable with the Grado house sound. I tried them at a meet, though, and although I was impressed with what they do well, I was still disappointed with their lack of soundstage...or I guess it might be more accurate to say that the soundstage was not to my personal liking.

I haven't heard a pair of Audiotechnicas.

Yup. You read right. I'm banking on the idea that if I don't like either the W5000 or the W3000, I'll be able to sell them and recover most of the money. I figured it might be worth it to check both of them out personally for a longer trial period than what you'd get at a meet. I'm hoping that one of them will give me the soundstage I'm looking for with (hopefully) some of the same ability to present rock as the RS-1.

I'm thinking I'll prefer the W3000 just based on my general preference for a warmer sound with rock, but Vic has really done a lot to extol the virtues of the W5000 for rock....so it might be a closer call than I'd anticipated initially. The W5000 seems to be more picky with upstream components, especially amps from the sounds of it, and I'm hesitant to try to start catering a system specifically for a single pair of headphones if I can avoid it. That being said, if it inspires that level of allegiance than maybe I would reconsider.

I've got a TRL modded Sony CE-595 coming in, which should be an adequate source, but I'm going with 'just' a close-to-maxxed Millett hybrid as an amp (TREAD instead of STEPS). I debated about whether I should invest more in an amp, but I've personally felt that amps were in some ways overrated with lower impedence phones...although I'm sure that is probably incorrect by audiophile criteria...

Sorry to threadjack-

 

[roy_jones]

Quote:

Originally Posted by SK138 purk...that's very interesting. Inside W5000...the dampening material is like insulation fiber glass material. I hate to think drivers are all same execpt for $0.10 dampening material..and some wood and leather outside

You know, it really wouldn't surprise me if it was only a matter of dampening material and some other minor housing differences that were attributable for the difference in sound. I've heard that Grado's use 'essentially' the same drivers in all their headphones, but this is based on some heresay, so I guess I should be careful saying it.

However, I don't know how it would be possible to get a different sound signature by switching drivers then, if this was indeed the case. Maybe the drivers are tuned differently, but are physically the same otherwise?

Hmmm....

 

[SK138]

I was an AT "virgin" too. In the past I had every Grado (except GS1k), every Alessandro, all Senn above HD580, few Beyers, and some AKG...favoring Alessandro sound. To me...AT took the best of the European sound and the American sound and blended in to AT. Needless to say, once I heard and fell in love with my fist AT (A900LTD)...I sold all my cans to get the W5000. Once I have an AT can on my head...I get lost in the music. To me that's what a good can should do.

I am sure you will love your new purchase...if not, I will take the first chance to purchase your W3000

After the meet, IMO, like you, I concluded amps are over-rated. It's really about the source. If you have a good source...amp should be transparent to it. In my case my MF A3.24 is too neutral and boring for my taste compare to slwiser's Lavry DAC and M^3 amp adds just enough "color" to match the lush sound from Lavry DAC + HA5000 amp

. In the end...it's all about system synergy and between ones ears (personal listening preference).

When you get it, please post your impressions of W3000 and W5000. Let's get some AT love posted here

Quote:

Originally Posted by roy_jones Thanks for the feedback. purk, it's interesting to hear your observations given that you've actually taken apart both sets of headphones to see what their internals look like. I dug up an old thread about my specific pair, and I was surprised to see that initially AK_zip had tried the drivers in a W1000 housing because it more closely matched the physical characteristics of the L3000, but it didn't sound very good according to his experimentation. It doesn't sound as though your hybrid pair is necessarily 'worse' than the L3000, so much as it is different, in being more balanced towards the high end of the spectrum. Maybe that's not true, and I would imagine there would be an element of refinement in the L3000's that would not be possible in a frankenphone. Apparently the pair I'm getting has got a custom cable job as well, so hopefully that helps the overall sound. I'm taking a bit of a risk. I listen to mostly rock, and was pretty much set and determined that I was going to get a pair of RS-1's, as I'm more familiar and comfortable with the Grado house sound. I tried them at a meet, though, and although I was impressed with what they do well, I was still disappointed with their lack of soundstage...or I guess it might be more accurate to say that the soundstage was not to my personal liking. I haven't heard a pair of Audiotechnicas. Yup. You read right. I'm banking on the idea that if I don't like either the W5000 or the W3000, I'll be able to sell them and recover most of the money. I figured it might be worth it to check both of them out personally for a longer trial period than what you'd get at a meet. I'm hoping that one of them will give me the soundstage I'm looking for with (hopefully) some of the same ability to present rock as the RS-1. I'm thinking I'll prefer the W3000 just based on my general preference for a warmer sound with rock, but Vic has really done a lot to extol the virtues of the W5000 for rock....so it might be a closer call than I'd anticipated initially. The W5000 seems to be more picky with upstream components, especially amps from the sounds of it, and I'm hesitant to try to start catering a system specifically for a single pair of headphones if I can avoid it. That being said, if it inspires that level of allegiance than maybe I would reconsider. I've got a TRL modded Sony CE-595 coming in, which should be an adequate source, but I'm going with 'just' a close-to-maxxed Millett hybrid as an amp (TREAD instead of STEPS). I debated about whether I should invest more in an amp, but I've personally felt that amps were in some ways overrated with lower impedence phones...although I'm sure that is probably incorrect by audiophile criteria... Sorry to threadjack-

 

[thrice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by purk The W2002's damping is sponge-like, while the L3000 has a cotton-like material used as the acoustic treatment inside the cups.

The dampening material in the W100 is a sponge-like foam. I believe someone once mentioned that it was wool used in the L3000. I'm looking for some wool...don't know if you need super-expensive "audiophile" wool or any wool, but that and some silve cable and dual entry are the next tweeks I'll do in the next few months.

I've had the chance to listen and compare the L3000 to my W3000 briefly so my comments about the differences are really only skin deep. The W3000 is a bit "brighter" than the stock L3000. This isn't bad or good, but just different. The W3000 sounds good, but not quite as good at the L3000. I'd say 90% as good. The tonal accuracy is there, just a different FR and perhaps less detail with the W3000. but these are initial impressions only. I don't really feel like I've had enough time with the L3000 or the W3000 to really have a good grasp of the differences.

 

[PsychoZX]

I wish I would have known about this. I need to keep an eye on the meet forum more.

 

[purk]

SK138,

Quote:

purk...that's very interesting. Inside W5000...the dampening material is like insulation fiber glass material. I hate to think drivers are all same execpt for $0.10 dampening material..and some wood and leather outside

Remember, the cups on the W5000 are also bigger and made out of ebony instead of Asada tree. I doubt that the W5000 utilizes the same drivers as the L3000 as the W5000 is more in line with the W2002 in term of sound quality.

Thrice,

Quote:

The dampening material in the W100 is a sponge-like foam. I believe someone once mentioned that it was wool used in the L3000. I'm looking for some wool...don't know if you need super-expensive "audiophile" wool or any wool, but that and some silve cable and dual entry are the next tweeks I'll do in the next few months. I've had the chance to listen and compare the L3000 to my W3000 briefly so my comments about the differences are really only skin deep. The W3000 is a bit "brighter" than the stock L3000. This isn't bad or good, but just different. The W3000 sounds good, but not quite as good at the L3000. I'd say 90% as good. The tonal accuracy is there, just a different FR and perhaps less detail with the W3000. but these are initial impressions only. I don't really feel like I've had enough time with the L3000 or the W3000 to really have a good grasp of the differences.

If I have to choose b/w the hybrid and the L3000, I will have to go with the L3000. The L3000 is the smoother and less fatigue of the two phones. I also like the materials on the L3000's better, although, I have to admit that the lacquer finish of the W2002 is incredibly nice. As for the improvement b/w the stock W2002 and w2002 + L3000's drivers, it is a big jump for me. As many may know, the W2002 is notorious in amplification and often will sound dark and uninvolving with an incorrect amps. My hybrid now has more extension in both bass, and treble. The imaging is also better. My hybrid also sound excellent with my SDS amp. B/f that I prefer my stock W2002 with the HA2002 over my Singlepower SDS amp.

Purk

 

[socrates63]

You guys are sick!!! </drool>

I'll check back when I get home.

Any further comments regarding the DA10's amp section in comparison to some other amps? It's always been on my radar.