[catom]

Howdy!

I have a few headphones, all of which are mostly under or around $300 range. I keep getting headphones in this range and would love to stay in this range.

I'm lacking something with a bit of punch and bass. I don't consider myself a bass head, I don't like losing detail elsewhere. If I had to sacrifice, I'd opt to roll off the high end before muddying the mid range.

This is really tough. It's hard to buy headphones without listening to them. It's hard to describe what I'm looking for too.

Headphones I have:

Audio Technica MSR7 - too bright, but darn accurate. Mostly uncomfortable headband pushed me away from these.

Hifiman HE-400i - love these but not enough bass extension and sub bass. I have had some success with EQ. Very fast! Great timbre.

Meze Classics 99 - love these too as they are more playful than the Hifimans. They clearly have more bass. But still not quite enough punch for me. Prefer open back for wider soundstage.

What would be an upgrade and provide more bass slam without being Beats? I don't want things to be overdone necessarily and sacrifice other things to the best extent possible I guess. I imagine it's always a slight trade off.

Something V shaped? W shaped?

I backed those new HarmonicDyne Poseidons but I'm getting worried those won't get me what I'm after.

I have a fiio BTR5, a Loxjie P20 amp and the Schiit Modius DAC (just replaced my ODAC with that one). I love tube amps, I have two others but the Loxjie P20 is better than the Bravo V2 and Little Dot I+ I have. At least I think it is.

Is there a go to obvious choice here to pair with a tube amp?

Or am I going to need to start saving for things in the $900-1100 range? Ie. LCD or something like that?

I hope to keep under $500. Well under it if possible. But if I'm wasting money on another $300 pair...then I'll just wait. I have to believe there's something out there. I just don't know and can't listen to the darn things first

Thanks in advance!!!!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

I'm lacking something with a bit of punch and bass. I don't consider myself a bass head, I don't like losing detail elsewhere. If I had to sacrifice, I'd opt to roll off the high end before muddying the mid range.
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Something V shaped? W shaped?

If a headphone's response curve looks like an "upper case V" more than a "stylized cursive lower case v" (this is why I find these descriptions very problematic) it can still bleed into the mids rather than just having a good chunk of the bass boosted by a lot less (ie a stylized cursive v) just by having the bass linger longer even without actually boosting the frequencies near the midrange.

There's the HD6XX though if you'd opt for rolling off some above 1000hz while having stronger 60hz to 100hz (relative to 1000hz) vs the HE400i, although its bass response does roll off sharper below 50hz.

Audio Technica MSR7 - too bright, but darn accurate. Mostly uncomfortable headband pushed me away from these.

Technically if it's too bright then it's at best only accurate for everything else that isn't too bright. However transducer design being a matter of picking compromises sometimes what can produce more accurate tones to the right half of the piano keys tend to have a tendency to scratch your ears when the cymbals are moving, more so with earphones and headphones just by sitting right outside your ears vs speakers that are farther out and when bright it's either because you have reflections everywhere or as in a car you're hearing one tweeter ahead of the other tweeter and the two midwoofers.

Hifiman HE-400i - love these but not enough bass extension and sub bass. I have had some success with EQ. Very fast! Great timbre.

These actually have a lot of bass extension. The response curve from doesn't nose dive as early, ie the -3dB point is set lower than where most good dynamic headphones' -3dB point would be. When it comes to perception though this creates a problem of having the HE400i not having any "punch" compared to dynamic drivers (including speakers) that boost 60hz to 120hz. Even the AKG K701 that nosedives just below 60hz can sound punchier than an HE400i just by having a stronger 60hz to 90hz response, ditto Grados, more so with any ambient noise involved.

In short the HE400i has a more accurate bass reproduction but ambient noise makes them harder to hear, and being headphones, being objectively accurate also has the handicap of being even farther from how dynamic driver speakers not only have a tendency to also boost that upper bass range, but also have the soundwaves hitting your whole body. That's why lower range Focal speakers tend to be thought of as "musical" but some planar headphones sound sterile in all but the most quiet room to a guy that doesn't expect things to be close to how speakers sound like.

What would be an upgrade and provide more bass slam without being Beats? I don't want things to be overdone necessarily and sacrifice other things to the best extent possible I guess. I imagine it's always a slight trade off.

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I have a fiio BTR5, a Loxjie P20 amp and the Schiit Modius DAC (just replaced my ODAC with that one). I love tube amps, I have two others but the Loxjie P20 is better than the Bravo V2 and Little Dot I+ I have. At least I think it is.

Is there a go to obvious choice here to pair with a tube amp?

HD6XX with an OTL tube amp if you're not planning on using any low impedance headphone but if you can't easily return or just borrow an OTL amp this can be a problem in case it's still not what you're looking for.

Also those amps you have are hybrid amps, not tube amps. Only the preamp stage is tube there. That has a tendency to round out a bit of the nastier stuff in the higher frequencies but it's not a cheap solution to providing a lot of voltage with very low noise to a 300ohm headphone amp as an OTL does.

If you can sell those amps and then add a bit more the Meier Jazz FF is one option. No, it's not a tube. But if you're looking for "punch" and rhythm the Rock FF and Jazz FF are good options. Note: the regular Jazz is NOT a good idea for what you're looking for as by all accounts it seems to sound more like Schiit reference whereas the FF has a bit more of that fast punchy sound.

Note though that the low noise of Meier amps will not help you hear more bass if ambient noise is a problem, like how at headphone meets pre-pandemic people tend to hear my Cantate.2 sounding lean and that's what it sounds like there with people talking. If you're using a computer, changing your case, case fans, CPU cooler, and graphics card cooler (or from a noisy gaming laptop to a desktop, but good luck with graphics cards right now) might do as much to help you hear the bass as a starting point before upgrading any of the actual audio gear. It's for this reason why I used to use smartphones via USB OTG with my reference rig, but now I just hook up a DAP line out into the Cantate.2 then use HiBy Link to control it from the smartphone.

Or am I going to need to start saving for things in the $900-1100 range? Ie. LCD or something like that?

I hope to keep under $500. Well under it if possible. But if I'm wasting money on another $300 pair...then I'll just wait. I have to believe there's something out there. I just don't know and can't listen to the darn things first

Might be a better idea to save up and get an LCD-2 Classic and something like a Jazz FF later on. And if you are indeed using a computer as a source then maybe going all Noctua (if you can get that 3070 Strix X Noctua thing) or BeQuiet, or just putting a 240mm AIO on the graphics card using an NZXT G12 and that Phanteks with the 30mm thick fans and the pump-block cover that dampens the noise (or going full loop but mind the pump choice) can also help you hear more of the bass, especially how deep the bass on the HE400i actually goes.

 

[catom]

Wow!! Thank you so much for all of that info, I appreciate it!

I do use a gaming PC but it's now actually really quiet after I changed cases recently. I have fans running low and while gaming it's lower but not that bad. I use the closed back Meze while gaming and don't hear a thing outside them. But I'm more concerned about ambient noise when listening to music. In that case, some of my PC fans are off even. I have an AIO on the CPU and the GPU (EVGA 2070) fans won't spin while not gaming. So it's quiet. 3 fans running maybe 500 rpm? One of which is a larger Corsair pro maglev fan so it's pretty quiet.

I definitely love the HE-400i don't get me wrong I hear it's bass. I just don't think of it as having that kinda punch or kick. Maybe it's ambient noise like you said. I have a good EQ setting for it with Peace. It helps. But I don't know maybe I would like something more like a bass canon. I never thought I would want that because I know it comes at a cost to other ranges. It's not all the time I want that, but sometimes I just feel like I'm missing it.

Maybe I'll save up for one of those LCDs. I keep hearing good things.

And as far as amps go, I know they are hybrid but I also didn't have a huge budget for them either. One thing that was really nice about the Schiit Modius + Loxjie P20 is that they're balanced. This really fixed a noise/ground loop issue that I had. Things really got clear with those two. So I'd probably want to stick with at least one component being balanced and I know that's going to be pricey.

 

[HipHopScribe]

So I think sub-bass is one of those terms people get confused on. Sub-bass isn't where the body and punch comes from, that's more the mid and upper bass. Muddiness creeps in when that hump extends too far into the lower mids. It's also harder to achieve in open headphones and in planars by their nature. I'd point you toward a semi-closed dynamic driver headphone like an E-Mu Teak or Fostex TH900

 

[catom]

Fair enough. I'm not exactly sure what leads to that impact, I'm just trying to find the words others use to describe.

I definitely know what you mean about the mudyness and don't care for that. I think that's where Beats comes in, right?

I'll take a look at the Teak. I think I've read about that Fostex (among others) and it was pricey, right? I'll take a look again.

I was also curious about Audioquest Nightowl or Nighthawk if I could find one. Anyone know if those would be in the right direction here?

 

[HipHopScribe]

Fair enough. I'm not exactly sure what leads to that impact, I'm just trying to find the words others use to describe.

I definitely know what you mean about the mudyness and don't care for that. I think that's where Beats comes in, right?

I'll take a look at the Teak. I think I've read about that Fostex (among others) and it was pricey, right? I'll take a look again.

I was also curious about Audioquest Nightowl or Nighthawk if I could find one. Anyone know if those would be in the right direction here?

The Fostex is over your budget yes. The Teak is $450 for the fixed cable version, $500 for the removable cable version, so it would be more affordable. I would avoid the Nighthawk unless you're gonna EQ, it's definitely a muddy headphone stock. The Nightowl is a little cleaner, so that might be a decent option. All of these headphones use similar Foster biodynamic drivers, but obviously the tuning varies. The way Audioquest tuned their headphones, especially the Nighthawks, was a little out there

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Wow!! Thank you so much for all of that info, I appreciate it!

I do use a gaming PC but it's now actually really quiet after I changed cases recently. I have fans running low and while gaming it's lower but not that bad. I use the closed back Meze while gaming and don't hear a thing outside them. But I'm more concerned about ambient noise when listening to music. In that case, some of my PC fans are off even. I have an AIO on the CPU and the GPU (EVGA 2070) fans won't spin while not gaming. So it's quiet. 3 fans running maybe 500 rpm? One of which is a larger Corsair pro maglev fan so it's pretty quiet.

That's quiet for a gaming PC, but it's still not as good as fanless. But if you really prefer to use the computer that's about as good as it gets short of a full fanless system or a quiet pump moving the liquid to off to radiators that aren't even in the room or on the case (either because you're using fans at higher speed or they're arranged in such a way as to work passively or semi-passively, like my plan to have them in series below the intake of a whole room exhaust fan in the ceiling).

In my case I don't just use fanless devices, I also don't listen when it's really hot (when I'd have to run both the A/C and the fan pointed towards me), or kinda hot (fan), and before 10pm (street noise, neighbors' cars parking, their excitable dogs, etc). So basically if I listen before 10pm any time of the year the A/C's running, and during the hottest months, I'd run the A/C earlier.

You could try closing the windows to deal with the ambient noise there however if the noise is from other people in the house there's a reason why I have IEMs (other than planes and trains). You might want to keep a pair handy for when everybody else is still awake and have Netflix or HBO/NBC/etc cranked up in the living room. Alternately, maybe just switch over to IEMs completely.

I definitely love the HE-400i don't get me wrong I hear it's bass. I just don't think of it as having that kinda punch or kick.

Stronger punch/kick is from ~60hz to ~150hz. Other than that, how loud it's playing ie input power vis a vis sensitivity (barring distortion, impedance issues, etc) can affect how much of it will be audible. That's why Grados having a boost at around 75hz to 150hz coupled with 96dB/1mW or higher sensitivity gets known for having a lot of punch.

Bass extension ie how deep the bass sounds like or being able to hear really low freq instruments before the inaudible range is everything below ~60hz down to 20hz.

(Not from the same rig but point is just to illustrate how different the response curve is)

Maybe it's ambient noise like you said. I have a good EQ setting for it with Peace. It helps. But I don't know maybe I would like something more like a bass canon. I never thought I would want that because I know it comes at a cost to other ranges. It's not all the time I want that, but sometimes I just feel like I'm missing it.

A bass cannon wouldn't be about punch and kick. If it were metal listeners would be predominantly using Beats, Sony XB, and some Superlux.

In automotive terms, "punch and kick" is the car with Focal speakers in angle mounts like how toe in in home speakers are with a processor splitting up the sound to apply custom delays and everything is heard in sync from the driver's seat...

...while the bass cannon is the one with Kicker Solobarics in a ported box that lets everybody know you on dee way coz they can hear it from four blocks away.

Maybe I'll save up for one of those LCDs. I keep hearing good things.

Below 800hz the LCD-2 Classic measures a lot like the HE400i. So in terms of overall punch it won't be like Grados, but you'll still get far more extension than with any Grado.

The difference is above 800hz as everything above 1000hz is significantly weaker than everything below 800hz. So while you don't get a boosted "kick" region you're also getting a good chunk of the range weaker than the rest, so you're not getting any auditory masking ie you can hear that region more clearly at the "expense" of other frequencies. "Expense" because technically it is, but in practice, these frequencies are easier to hear even above ambient noise (not to say ambient noise can't interfere, just that it can't completely muffle that range out), so being weaker here vs 800hz down is just compensating for an imperfect listening tool in an imperfect environment. They're still open headphones though so don't expect them to just overcome ambient noise the way good IEMs can.

And as far as amps go, I know they are hybrid but I also didn't have a huge budget for them either. One thing that was really nice about the Schiit Modius + Loxjie P20 is that they're balanced. This really fixed a noise/ground loop issue that I had. Things really got clear with those two. So I'd probably want to stick with at least one component being balanced and I know that's going to be pricey.

Stick to balanced amps if so far it's been effective in removing ground loop problems but don't expect balanced nor tubes (or hybrid balanced) to add that kick and punch and not any other design.

That said the other cheaper balanced amps also tend to have a relatively leaner sound when pushed (Magnius and Jotunheim), eaning more towards the O2 than say Violectric, so this means you really can't rely on the amp to help. It's all on the headphones.

 

[catom]

Also I guess it helps to list the kind of music I'm looking to pair with. I listen to a variety of genres but at work I gravitate toward downtempo, sometimes hip hop-ish, lounge kind of music. Think Tricky, Thievery Corporation, Bonobo, Massive Attack. Stuff you'd hear from Hotel Costes, etc.

For rock, alternative, pop, etc. I think my current headphones do very well for that. When I want to listen to female vocals be it Adele or Tracy Thorn or Stevie Nicks or any other where I just want that smoothness and sparkle. I feel like I'm good there and definitely reach for the Hifimans.

I'm just missing that soft oomph. Hard loud when it calls for. But still something that moves you that you can feel the impact of otherwise.

 

[catom]

Thanks Protege! I never expected such detailed responses. I appreciate it.

So would you cancel the HarmonicDyne Kickstarter (if I still can) for the Poseidon and sink the $300 into something else? I don't know how closely they will or won't be to the Zeus and if you've heard those...or at least can gather from the descriptions people are giving and any graphs. I just can't tell and feel like I keep getting lead into things that aren't bad per se, just not what I'm after.

I just want a soft boomy kinda headphone for work during the day while listening to music predominantly without vocals. I don't want to be distracted. I'll listen to vocals later in the day and at night. Work. Rainy day kinda vibes here. Mellow but present. Fun when it calls for it every now and then. Or in other words not sleepy ha. I think that gets to be part of it. When I can't feel that rhythm and bass I start getting sleepy. Yet I don't want a high energy song with lyrics either because I'm trying to work (programming, so I need to read and keep track of a lot - either I can manage to tune out the lyrics OR they get in tbe way and I have to set the headphones down for some tasks).

I totally get the kind of music I put on for background work music is kinda sleepy by nature. But not that sleepy melancholic, right? I don't think so at least. It fades but just maybe too much and I think (maybe I'm wrong) a headphone with more punch will bring back some fun and bounce and presence. Meze Classics 99 are pretty close in this regard. Just not quite there. EQ'd Hifiman is close too but I swear I keep losing the Peace/APO settings all the time. Or rather they are there but constantly loading them and restarting services is a pain. I half considered Schiit's physical EQ.

 

[catom]

Oh, are the Fostex and E-mu Teak all on-ear? I can't stand that. I like over ear. I was getting excited about the Teak too.

 

[HipHopScribe]

Oh, are the Fostex and E-mu Teak all on-ear? I can't stand that. I like over ear. I was getting excited about the Teak too.

They're over ear

 

[waveSounds]

The Fostex is over your budget yes. The Teak is $450 for the fixed cable version, $500 for the removable cable version, so it would be more affordable. I would avoid the Nighthawk unless you're gonna EQ, it's definitely a muddy headphone stock. The Nightowl is a little cleaner, so that might be a decent option. All of these headphones use similar Foster biodynamic drivers, but obviously the tuning varies. The way Audioquest tuned their headphones, especially the Nighthawks, was a little out there

My first thought for a recommendation was also the E-MUs. I've not heard them personally - although I would like to add them to my own collection at some point - but they are talked of with a lot of appreciation in the font of all knowledge that is the closed-back thread.

I'd say the NightOwl would be a good shout. I would happily classify my own preferences on the bass-head end of the spectrum, and whilst they're not necessarily in that domain as out and out bass cannons, their bass is extremely satisfying. Only issue you'll have is finding a set what with them being discontinued a while back. If you find one though it's worth the punt.

 

[catom]

They're over ear

Oh thank God. Thanks for letting me know. Their website lists as "on-ear" but I figured maybe by chance that has a loose meaning. Yay.

So better deal? I'll cancel Poseidon and just buy the Teaks right away if so. I might read a bit more but from what I'm hearing the Poseidons may just be more of the same for me. I'm beginning to wonder if mayyybe they'll be closer to the Meze Classics but with a little more soundstage. In which case, I don't think different enough.

 

[HipHopScribe]

Oh thank God. Thanks for letting me know. Their website lists as "on-ear" but I figured maybe by chance that has a loose meaning. Yay.

So better deal? I'll cancel Poseidon and just buy the Teaks right away if so. I might read a bit more but from what I'm hearing the Poseidons may just be more of the same for me. I'm beginning to wonder if mayyybe they'll be closer to the Meze Classics but with a little more soundstage. In which case, I don't think different enough.

It's hard to say about the Poseidon, they're so new and I haven't heard them personally. Early reviews seem good, but you've always got to worry about hype with a new product. The Teaks are more of a known quantity, been around for years, plenty of reviews out there and long term users out there.

 

[WorksUnit]

I'm just missing that soft oomph. Hard loud when it calls for. But still something that moves you that you can feel the impact of otherwise.

I value an experience like that too...giving the low-end some subtle texture and more of a "room" feel.
Interested to see suggestions in the price range, also +1 for Thievery Corporation