Dali's Soft Magnetic Composite Driver

[KinGensai]

What I’m trying to say is I agree with you. They sound great, in my opinion, not because of the codecs used or anything that falls outside of the realm of human hearing (to your points above). The receipts? I had the IO 12. But again to your point, I just returned it because, to me, it wasn’t $1000 better than my sennheiser momentum 4. Not even close actually. It was even a downgrade in battery which is important to me. There should be no compromises at that price point imo. Either way, what I’m trying to say is that, in general, it’s the hardware mostly that makes something sound good, not codecs or snake oil.

Ok, I obviously misunderstood your initial post, sorry about that. From what data I have so far, I suspect this HP falls within nominal performance metrics given the level of THD, which is a far cry from Dali's advertised claim that they compete with e-stats which are notably defined by extremely low THD. I can't find any more than that, so I'm reserving final judgement of course, but the OP is concerning these marketing claims so I am trying to figure out just how much BS is in there.

You mention you were listening to a phone a few years ago. BT standards have improved to possibly pool a higher bitrate SBC (maybe the signal then wasn't quite optimal). Also, I wonder if the phone processes SBC vs aptX the same way after the audio is decoded. It's possible it's still treating them differently in its audio/EQ settings.

Yeah, it's been a hot minute, so I'm going to try again because I still have that DSR9BT somewhere, so I'll see if the V60 improves on the V20's performance in any meaningful way.

 

[Bahnhof Zoo]

Ok, I obviously misunderstood your initial post, sorry about that. From what data I have so far, I suspect this HP falls within nominal performance metrics given the level of THD, which is a far cry from Dali's advertised claim that they compete with e-stats which are notably defined by extremely low THD. I can't find any more than that, so I'm reserving final judgement of course, but the OP is concerning these marketing claims so I am trying to figure out just how much BS is in there.

I hear ya and appreciate your analysis there. It's in line with what I experienced

 

[angelom]

Receipts? I can't find anything on these outside of fluff pieces and a THD measurement that places it as average in fidelity.

First, I will saying that I'm always very, very sceptical of 'reviews' (for me the majority of this aren't real reviews but only something very much like marketing for a product, and usually giving cliche, vague, useless and meaningless information). I trusting VERY few reviews (Tyll and Darko are very good, in my opinion, but Tyll isn't doing reviews anymore).

Secondly, is very obvious too that, in a perfect world, we must trying and testing a headphone in person for knowing if is (very) good, bad or mediocre for us. Unfortunately, this isn't possible for many people around the world, and they must obtaining all information from the internet. In this case is important knowing the type of sound the person is enjoying so that having capacity of interpreting FR graphs can becoming useful. But FR graphs and others measurements can't be substitute for testing a headphone in person properly, ideally in very quiet environment.

I own the HD800, HD600, UERM (custom IEM), ER-4S and others earphones and headphones. When I buying the iO-12 (1000 EUR in Europe), I have 14 days for returning and receiving 100% refund, so no real risk in my purchase. The iO-12's tonal balance is very reasonably close to my HD800, and the 5-6 kHz peak of the Dalis isn't never offensive for my ears personally like the treble peak of the excellent HD800 (when increasing the volume), and this is in BT mode using 265kbps files from my iPhone and MacBook Pro (!). And then, and this is one unanimous comment for the (now) many people that trying the iO-12, the detail extraction and soundstage are very impressive, like not others BT headphones.

So, for me the iO-12 is a very remarkable headphone for its sound quality. Before this, I owning for one year the even more expensive (1700 USD / 1400 EUR) T+A Solitaire T (ST) that I selling when I deciding keeping the Dalis -- the ST is a headphone that the T+A the engineers first designing like a very good wired-only headphone and then later they adding the BT and ANC components, with 2 types BT modes, one being standard and the other is unique in the world of BT headphones...but that's a more long story. Several ST owners, incidentally, in fact, using this headphone very more often in wired [often balanced] mode more than in BT mode (BT "HQ" mode being excellent too), and several of this people have experience with good (and often very more expensive) headphones and equipment. (The iO-12 is in the market 5 months now, and the ST one year and 5 months)

 

[Davesrose]

Yeah, it's been a hot minute, so I'm going to try again because I still have that DSR9BT somewhere, so I'll see if the V60 improves on the V20's performance in any meaningful way.

Probably could sound different either way with the DSR9BT's app settings (due to feature changes with the Android app's versioning). One can never dismiss software

 

[Dalmonegrig]

One can never dismiss software

As a rule, excellent software-hardware optimization leads to a synergistic effect. This is exactly what happens to DALI iO-12 when using the active connection mode.

 

[Davesrose]

As a rule, excellent software-hardware optimization leads to a synergistic effect.

And why there's never going to be an end to the Windows vs Mac vs and Linux "debate". When it comes to BT headphones, it can also be argued many others have excellent hardware/software optimization.

 

[KinGensai]

@angelom
I have a short list of people I take opinions from seriously too, so I get the reviewer angle, that's why I said I could only find fluff pieces.

I made no mention of FR yet. It seems to do ok in that respect from what I can see, EQ should be sufficient to tune to preference. What I'm calling into question is it's ability to play back a signal in a clean manner, which I doubt given a THD of 1.22% spread evenly across the spectrum. In order to play a signal back clean, it should have below 0.5% THD at the peaks (so averaging 0.1% to 0.3%), IMD below audibility thresholds (40dB) in general in a multi-tone test, and as short an IR as possible (<2ms is ideal IMO, 2.5ms is bordering on too long). I can't find any concrete data on the IO-12 outside of FR and THD, so like I said I'm open to being proven incorrect, but the initial indicator suggests nothing extraordinary is happening here SQ wise.

If it had actually mind boggling measurements like the 7Hz Zero 2 I would be more interested, as that thing does reach 0.3% THD across the spectrum and plays signals back like TOTL sets I own (Fatfreq MSE and Anole V14) for $25 utilizing a single DD. That is amazing, and if the phrase "competes with e-stats" was used to describe this set, I wouldn't consider it total BS.

 

[Dalmonegrig]

Wikipedia LDAC.
"Lossless audio transmission can be achieved by manually configuring the codec's resolution to 44.1 kHz, 16 bits and selecting 'Sound quality preferred' for high bitrate streaming at 909 kbps. This setup is identical to a wired audio or an Audio-CD sound quality".

I understand correctly that LDAC can be configured in software to transmit lossless audio. Or is this an error in the description?

 

[Davesrose]

Wikipedia LDAC.
"Lossless audio transmission can be achieved by manually configuring the codec's resolution to 44.1 kHz, 16 bits and selecting 'Sound quality preferred' for high bitrate streaming at 909 kbps. This setup is identical to a wired audio or an Audio-CD sound quality".

I understand correctly that LDAC can be configured in software to transmit lossless audio. Or is this an error in the description?

yes, I have less experience developing for Android....but I do have a Raspberry Pi with Android OS for beer brewing. For phone, I'm in the Apple echo system-that is pretty limited as far as developer options on it (Apple makes phone simulations for XCode on the Mac, or an interface that you can send the simulation to your iOS device). Anyway, from the description, it seems if you have your Android in developer mode, you can have a BT setting "sound quality preferred", so that the sample rate is set at 44.1kHz at the "max" 909kbs (instead of *potentially* going "high-res" 96kHz lossy if the signal gets up to the 990kbps bandwidth). You may not also be able to see a developer mode option on your Android phone if your cell phone provider has disabled it (because they essentially have their own tailored Android versions).

 

[Dalmonegrig]

When it comes to BT headphones, it can also be argued many others have excellent hardware/software optimization.

Yes, this is true, but the DALI iO-12 is superior to many in terms of sound reproduction quality in active connection mode. I mean auditory perception, not graphs with numbers.

 

[angelom]

@angelom
I have a short list of people I take opinions from seriously too, so I get the reviewer angle, that's why I said I could only find fluff pieces.

I made no mention of FR yet. It seems to do ok in that respect from what I can see, EQ should be sufficient to tune to preference. What I'm calling into question is it's ability to play back a signal in a clean manner, which I doubt given a THD of 1.22% spread evenly across the spectrum. In order to play a signal back clean, it should have below 0.5% THD at the peaks (so averaging 0.1% to 0.3%), IMD below audibility thresholds (40dB) in general in a multi-tone test, and as short an IR as possible (<2ms is ideal IMO, 2.5ms is bordering on too long). I can't find any concrete data on the IO-12 outside of FR and THD, so like I said I'm open to being proven incorrect, but the initial indicator suggests nothing extraordinary is happening here SQ wise.

If it had actually mind boggling measurements like the 7Hz Zero 2 I would be more interested, as that thing does reach 0.3% THD across the spectrum and plays signals back like TOTL sets I own (Fatfreq MSE and Anole V14) for $25 utilizing a single DD. That is amazing, and if the phrase "competes with e-stats" was used to describe this set, I wouldn't consider it total BS.

I never hearing the 7Hz Zero 2 and I don't have doubts is one very good/excellent IEM (I know the Truthear Hexa [65 EUR] that is very excellent and performing so very better than many IEMs and headphones that are very more expensive).

And I understand your comments, coming from the information you have available. My main idea is that I'm extremely sceptical of so much BS we seeing in audio forums, but in saying this, the iO-12 is, in my opinion, a very remarkable headphone, and one headphone that, if possible, people that have interest in good audio must trying eventually. Expensive? Yes, for very majority of people (specially outside of Europe), or maybe not so ridiculously expensive depending in what priorities you having apart from obtaining very good SQ. Is very clear for me that Dali, at least, investing financial resources in the right direction when developing the iO-12, and not just in the sound quality aspect of the headphone.

 

[Davesrose]

Yes, this is true, but the DALI iO-12 is superior to many in terms of sound reproduction quality in active connection mode. I mean auditory perception, not graphs with numbers.

Since so much of audio reproduction lies with the headphone transducer: the preference of DALI iO-12 could also lay with the hardware design of the headphone. For me, my Sennheiser Momentum earbuds are best. Better for working out, good sound isolation, and "pretty good" audio quality for price performance. I also like how the app is designed: there is so much tailoring you can do with EQ/DSP settings to set the sound the way you like it (so I can dial it in to sound great for my preferences). It also seems better for tailoring sound vs a Sony app I have for WH-1000MX3 (that I stopped using in the home after I got the Sennheisers: now I'll use them for audioconferencing). DALI may subjectively sound the best of all BT headphones, but for BT I'm just looking for buds at a reasonable price. I've got my corded analog headphones for the best "audiophile" listening if I'm sitting down and listening.

 

[KinGensai]

@gregorio
I just gave the DSR9BT another try (and quickly remembered why I shelved it, huge dip at 250Hz and too much elevation around 7k to 10k causing sibilance and metallic sheen), and it has gotten better from what I remember before. I'm playing 24/48 FLAC through UAPP and switching between SBC and AptX, and SBC sounds far better implemented than before and in recordings I hear from that time (2019). However, there is something distinguishable between the two, and it's the dynamic range of the transient peaks in the track I'm listening to. I'll give you the track I used, maybe you can give it a try and see what you think. I will say though that it could be within perceptual margin of error because it is not as distinct as I remember it being.

https://mega.nz/file/M4ZiWSAJ#sUQSSQ1c1K0KpNfpBkhCXOU8F-Adgz1jGOp7taj1HKE

 

[Dalmonegrig]

Wikipedia LDAC.
"Lossless audio transmission can be achieved by manually configuring the codec's resolution to 44.1 kHz, 16 bits and selecting 'Sound quality preferred' for high bitrate streaming at 909 kbps. This setup is identical to a wired audio or an Audio-CD sound quality".

I understand correctly that LDAC can be configured in software to transmit lossless audio. Or is this an error in the description?

From words to deeds.
Below are the LDAC settings on Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra using Sony WF-1000XM5.

Roon

Sony WF-1000XM5 (Headphones)

LDAC Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra (BT modes)

Everything is configured as required for lossless audio transmission.

Question: “Am I really getting lossless audio now?”

 

[Davesrose]

Question: “Am I really getting lossless audio now?”

As long as the bandwidth is getting over 909kbps, then yes.