DAC, will it help me?
Aug 3, 2006 at 6:32 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 22

Kaluminati

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I know you vets probably get sick of the newbies asking for buying advice but here comes another.

I just recently purchased some DT770pro/80s with a pimeta amp which is great. I'm lookin toward the future at this point but I'm not sure what would be the next step. I'm on the fence about getting a DAC or darth beyers. Now let me inform you that I have no idea what these DACs are all about. I run my music with foobar on an X-FI platinum card because I game as well. Would getting a $200 dac benefit me more than Darthing my cans? My mp3 source usually consists of 192-320 VBRs, A LOT of live dj mixes where the quality isn't all that great, and a few FLAC albums mixed in there.

I'm trying my best here but I'm not 100% on what exactly DACs do for the sound quality. Oh wise ones, elighten me.=)
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 9:04 AM Post #2 of 22
Rather spend the $200 on a big HDD & upgrade all you can to FLAC / ALAC. Upgrading the reproduction without having proper source material will only provide for disappointment.
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 10:14 AM Post #3 of 22
Garbage in, garbage out.

I would suggest this order of upgrade:
1) Change all your music to some form of lossless.
2) Ensure you're using ASIO for audio from Foobar.
3) Cans and if you can swing it 4) Amp, at the same time, otherwise in that order because an amp will only bring out a poorly balanced can, and if you don't like ur cans when the rest of the chain is upgraded, it will really annoy you until u can afford the new cans. Easier to underpower a good can and upgrade the amp after (in my opinion anyway).

Then last but definitely not least:
4) Outboard DAC.

Depending what you want, you may not need to change the cans, I'm unfamiliar with yours and they may give a coloration/signature you already love. But then each time you change one thing, it may change you're perception of you're other gear anyway. The amp I know nothing about, but have the vague impression it's a beginners amp.

PS, you may not like some of you're live music through higher quality gear.
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 12:17 PM Post #4 of 22
Hm. I thought the DT770s *were* the darth beyers.
blink.gif


Anyway, I'd upgrade the source. DAC is very important, but I don't know how good the DAC on your x-fi card is. You can run digital-out to say a DAC in a box that's less than $100 (from diykits) to your pimeta.

192-320kbps VBRs are pretty good to start with, if you upgrade your DAC i believe you will hear a significant improvement.
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 1:14 PM Post #6 of 22
I firmly believe that an external DAC is a complete waste of time unless you feed it lossess/CD. DACs only reveal the last of the detail that is in these formats. Any kind of lossy compression (even 320kbps) would in my opinion be misusing a DAC. Many will argue you can't hear the difference between lossless and 320kbps. To that I say: I admit I cannot tell the difference above about 192kbps on my work rig. But why would you buy gear of the calibre we discuss on here in you're "good" rig, if you're not going to feed it the absolute best signal you can get your hands on?

If i think about it more, the order of my previous list could be:
1) Convert to highest lossy bitrate possible (320kbps MP3 or equivalent of another format)
2) Get ASIO/foobar (for what it's worth at this point in time...)
3) Cans, 4) amp (the lossy music will still be quite enjoyable)
but then 5) lossless and 6) DAC will really blow your mind.

I guess I'm just firmly against using a DAC to read anything except the original signal before it has undergone any other manipulation, as it's the one designed to do the best job possible of decoding.
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 1:20 PM Post #7 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind
I firmly believe that an external DAC is a complete waste of time unless you feed it lossess/CD.


Aaaahhh, well, I'll have to admit that the very few low bitrate tracks I have do sound great out of my deskrig [edit: Of course I never heard the original quality]. But then again the AQVOX is not a $200 DAC. I would support that there are better was to spend this amount.
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 4:29 PM Post #8 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind
I firmly believe that an external DAC is a complete waste of time unless you feed it lossess/CD. DACs only reveal the last of the detail that is in these formats. Any kind of lossy compression (even 320kbps) would in my opinion be misusing a DAC. Many will argue you can't hear the difference between lossless and 320kbps. To that I say: I admit I cannot tell the difference above about 192kbps on my work rig. But why would you buy gear of the calibre we discuss on here in you're "good" rig, if you're not going to feed it the absolute best signal you can get your hands on?


Would it be safe for us to assume that you can hear the difference on your home ("good") rig?
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 5:54 PM Post #9 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by rincewind
I firmly believe that an external DAC is a complete waste of time unless you feed it lossess/CD. DACs only reveal the last of the detail that is in these formats.


A good external DAC will reveal the shortcomings of the source material quite quickly. So, if you buy a DAC, you will end up switching to lossless formats anyway.
 
Aug 3, 2006 at 6:49 PM Post #10 of 22
Thanks for the input. From what I see here, I'm done with upgrading. I can't imagine getting anything else besides my DT770s mainly because of the huge price increase of supposed "better" cans than these. I *JUST* got these and my amp, due to having a small budget which won't likely increase to make such upgrades for a long time. I have collected quite a few lossless rips, but they are probably .01% of my music collection. Half the time I'm listening to live recorded dj sets, other half studio recordings. I can't get lossless rips of the live sets, so it really is pointless to get a DAC for me.

I know what my limitations are now, thanks all =)
 
Aug 4, 2006 at 12:35 AM Post #11 of 22
I disgaree. A DAC can very well help. It will be more revealing, yes. But the sound signature may change, the smoothness and bass impact, and the quiet should be "blacker" and less noisy.

192kbps may not be nominal, but properly ripped it can sound very good.

More info: http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=190719

I don't know how good your Xfi's onboard DAC is. Shouldn't be that poor. However, you have optical out (right?).. which opens out the possibilities for many DACs.

There's a <$100 optical in DAC from DIYkits that I think you should at least check out. Sounds like the Zhaolu!
 
Aug 4, 2006 at 2:49 AM Post #12 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaluminati
I know you vets probably get sick of the newbies asking for buying advice but here comes another.

I just recently purchased some DT770pro/80s with a pimeta amp which is great. I'm lookin toward the future at this point but I'm not sure what would be the next step. I'm on the fence about getting a DAC or darth beyers. Now let me inform you that I have no idea what these DACs are all about. I run my music with foobar on an X-FI platinum card because I game as well. Would getting a $200 dac benefit me more than Darthing my cans? My mp3 source usually consists of 192-320 VBRs, A LOT of live dj mixes where the quality isn't all that great, and a few FLAC albums mixed in there.

I'm trying my best here but I'm not 100% on what exactly DACs do for the sound quality. Oh wise ones, elighten me.=)



You've asked a reasonable question. Sadly, some posters have decided to confuse matters by stating their personal biases as if they were fact. If you have high quality mp3's, you have a good sound source. Don't let purists disuade you by their extremist positions. The idea that you shouldn't bother to improve things unless you conform to their religion about loss-less formats is absurd. The idea that you should re-rip everything you have that is in high-quality mp3 into FLAC is absurd. One thing you need to learn around here is that you need to keep your eye on the ball.

I am not familiar with your headphones or your amp. Other people know around here know more about affordable DAC's than I do, so I have no useful recommendation to make, except that you should not let bad advice discourage you. Keep your eye on the ball.
 
Aug 4, 2006 at 3:15 AM Post #13 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaluminati
I know you vets probably get sick of the newbies asking for buying advice but here comes another.

I just recently purchased some DT770pro/80s with a pimeta amp which is great. I'm lookin toward the future at this point but I'm not sure what would be the next step. I'm on the fence about getting a DAC or darth beyers. Now let me inform you that I have no idea what these DACs are all about. I run my music with foobar on an X-FI platinum card because I game as well. Would getting a $200 dac benefit me more than Darthing my cans? My mp3 source usually consists of 192-320 VBRs, A LOT of live dj mixes where the quality isn't all that great, and a few FLAC albums mixed in there.

I'm trying my best here but I'm not 100% on what exactly DACs do for the sound quality. Oh wise ones, elighten me.=)




OK!

I'm going to have to disagree with some of the posters here and recommend against spending the money towards converting to lossless in place of a DAC or headphone upgrade. Even my 96kbps live concert MP3s from six years ago sound much better on my current rig than they do if I just grab it out of my computer's analog output. The extra clarity, depth, realism, etc. (versus my sound card) don't go away even with the cruddy source material, it just can't fix the encoding errors, but that doesn't mean it doesn't sound better. Especially if you're someone who can tolerate some of the errors from lossy codecs (I can, I don't know about you), it's really not a big deal. At what you're encoding at, though, I've some doubts you'd notice the difference between your 320kbps mp3s and lossless, maybe even lower bitrate than that, so I'm not sure it's worth worrying about.

In terms of price/performance ratio, spending the money on going lossless IMHO is relatively low on that scale. Spending it on improving your situation with your D/A converter, amplifier, or headphones IMHO will net greater gains. I'd probably go for the DAC or doing something else with the amp (or both). I don't know what chips you have in your PIMETA, though. The X-Fi isn't a *terrible* source, though. You could try learning to use the EQ on your player and maybe Creative's EQ and see if you can get some improvements there. EQ'ing is a delicate art, but it can be a nice free performance upgrade in terms of providing a pleasant sound. I'm sometimes stuck using my sound card, and use of EQ for those times helps quite a bit. For your price range, there's pretty much the Zhaolu and the DAC-AH that I'm aware of. Depending on your taste in sound, one or the other should do a good job. The basic cheap mods on the Zhaolu are probably worth looking into if you go that route.

For amp, what I meant is maybe trying different op-amps...if you could tell me which ones are in it now I may be able to suggest a cheap upgrade in that respect if I can get some idea of what you feel is lacking right now
smily_headphones1.gif


Yeah, I know, I'll probably get clubbed to death simultaneously by the no-lossy and no-EQ crowd, but I'm assuming you're tight on money and so I'm trying to give you what I think would give the most noticeable and felicitous gains for the money you have. Since I'm flat broke from law school tuition, I can certainly identify with team empty-pockets-fi.
 
Aug 4, 2006 at 3:29 AM Post #14 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by russdog
You've asked a reasonable question. Sadly, some posters have decided to confuse matters by stating their personal biases as if they were fact. If you have high quality mp3's, you have a good sound source. Don't let purists disuade you by their extremist positions. The idea that you shouldn't bother to improve things unless you conform to their religion about loss-less formats is absurd. The idea that you should re-rip everything you have that is in high-quality mp3 into FLAC is absurd. One thing you need to learn around here is that you need to keep your eye on the ball.

I am not familiar with your headphones or your amp. Other people know around here know more about affordable DAC's than I do, so I have no useful recommendation to make, except that you should not let bad advice discourage you. Keep your eye on the ball.



I must agree.
Quote:

Originally Posted by KevC
I disgaree. A DAC can very well help. It will be more revealing, yes. But the sound signature may change, the smoothness and bass impact, and the quiet should be "blacker" and less noisy.

192kbps may not be nominal, but properly ripped it can sound very good.

More info: http://www6.head-fi.org/forums/showthread.php?t=190719

I don't know how good your Xfi's onboard DAC is. Shouldn't be that poor. However, you have optical out (right?).. which opens out the possibilities for many DACs.

There's a <$100 optical in DAC from DIYkits that I think you should at least check out. Sounds like the Zhaolu!



Only these 2 posts really answer your original question - "What will a DAC do for me?"

Although the other answers here have points, the main question when it comes to computer audio is how good / bad / affected the sound card is? "Good / Bad" I am sure makes sense to you. "Affected"? That probably made no sense.

So:

The problem with computer-generated sound is that the computer internals are a very noisy environment for the very low-level voltages that occur within a Digital to Analog Converter. The sound card must get it's power from the general outputs of the power supply, which is also supplying a CPU and GPU operating in the Megahertz to Gigahertz range, plus the mezzanine bus clocks of PCI and AGP, plus all external interfaces such as USB.

This represents a large problem when you seek audio "purity" for all those clock and signal sources "infect" the main power system of the computer (usually via the ground), and this causes the DAC of the sound card (or, conversely, some sound cards use a programmable DSP chip to operate as a "DAC") to lose accuracy because of inaccuracies given to it via it's own power source. "Good" sound cards might have some filtering to help remove the "ripple" and "noise" of the power supply, but things can only go so far - you can only remove up to a certain point when given something to work with.

An external DAC is, of course, removed from the main computer case and therefore is much more immune to these problems. If you are looking for the best level of immunity then hopefully your sound card has SPDIF optical (Toslink) out, as the optical cable electrically isolates the external DAC from the dirty computer power because the optical cable cannot carry any voltage / current / power. If your sound card only has a SPDIF "coaxial" (electrical) connection, then the external DAC can receive noise and ground loops from the computer's chassis and this will degrade the external DAC's performance.

Now, all is not perfect as the SPDIF signal that is passed from the computer, to the DAC, can incur "jitter". These are timing errors, and can happen because SPDIF does not carry any inherent "timing" signals. If the external DAC cannot / does not perfectly "sync" up to the computer digital source the external DAC can end up sounding worse than any internal sound card - regardless of the fact that the external DAC is in a significantly less noisy environment to do it's work.

Whether or not "jitter" will be a factor depends upon the sound card and DAC combination together - does the sound card have a low amount of output jitter? Does the DAC have a high tolerance for jitter, making that point moot? How does the DAC react to the link of the two?

It's not an exact science.

Will a $200 DAC make your system sound better?

Oooh, that's tough.
blink.gif
Going out on a limb...

Probably, it will. But NOBODY can say Yes or No because there are WAY too many factors in the equation. You'll probably just have to try, but it hopefully will make a nice difference for you once "all your ducks are in a row".

If you do decide to get the DAC, once you do you MAY indeed wish to switch to lossless compression. Why? Why not. If you are upgrading to get the best sound possible for your complete rig then switching over to the best sounding source - not "losing any data" - can't do anything but help.
 
Aug 4, 2006 at 3:55 AM Post #15 of 22
Quote:

Originally Posted by Filburt
OK!

I'm going to have to disagree with some of the posters here and recommend against spending the money towards converting to lossless in place of a DAC or headphone upgrade. Even my 96kbps live concert MP3s from six years ago sound much better on my current rig than they do if I just grab it out of my computer's analog output. The extra clarity, depth, realism, etc. (versus my sound card) don't go away even with the cruddy source material, it just can't fix the encoding errors, but that doesn't mean it doesn't sound better. Especially if you're someone who can tolerate some of the errors from lossy codecs (I can, I don't know about you), it's really not a big deal. At what you're encoding at, though, I've some doubts you'd notice the difference between your 320kbps mp3s and lossless, maybe even lower bitrate than that, so I'm not sure it's worth worrying about.

In terms of price/performance ratio, spending the money on going lossless IMHO is relatively low on that scale. Spending it on improving your situation with your D/A converter, amplifier, or headphones IMHO will net greater gains. I'd probably go for the DAC or doing something else with the amp (or both). I don't know what chips you have in your PIMETA, though. The X-Fi isn't a *terrible* source, though. You could try learning to use the EQ on your player and maybe Creative's EQ and see if you can get some improvements there. EQ'ing is a delicate art, but it can be a nice free performance upgrade in terms of providing a pleasant sound. I'm sometimes stuck using my sound card, and use of EQ for those times helps quite a bit. For your price range, there's pretty much the Zhaolu and the DAC-AH that I'm aware of. Depending on your taste in sound, one or the other should do a good job. The basic cheap mods on the Zhaolu are probably worth looking into if you go that route.

For amp, what I meant is maybe trying different op-amps...if you could tell me which ones are in it now I may be able to suggest a cheap upgrade in that respect if I can get some idea of what you feel is lacking right now
smily_headphones1.gif


Yeah, I know, I'll probably get clubbed to death simultaneously by the no-lossy and no-EQ crowd, but I'm assuming you're tight on money and so I'm trying to give you what I think would give the most noticeable and felicitous gains for the money you have. Since I'm flat broke from law school tuition, I can certainly identify with team empty-pockets-fi.



Thanks all for more input.

The op-amps in this pimeta:
AD8620 op-amp for the left and right channels
AD8610 op-amp for the ground channel.

Oh and yes my card has a internal bay with optical connections.
 

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