[C38368]

I'm starting to get serious about this whole stereo music listening thing, but DACs remain a bit of a mystery to me. Not so much what they do or how they do it, but how you can compare them to each other and (more importantly) how you can get an idea of what other components any given DAC works well with.

Right now, I have a pair of Grado HF-1s for home use. I'm very happy with these, and will probably hang around in the Grado camp for some time to come.
As far as home use goes, I think I'm pretty well settled on a MAD Ear+ Purist HD for my first [dedicated] amp. It seems to be quite well regarded here, is affordable, is said to go well with Grados, and Dr. Peppard is quite a nice fellow. So for now, I'm looking at this amp.
For a first source, I'm leaning strongly towards either an Onix XCD-88 or a Music Hall MMF CD-25.2. Yeah, I know they're the same basic unit, but either way...

So now this leaves me with the DAC question. I've seen folks in here suggest that even a DAC is subject to synergy effects, and I have no reason to dispute that.
But how noticeable is [affordable] DAC synergy (or lack thereof) going to be? My current frontrunners are Headamp's Micro DAC and CI Audio's VDA-1.
Thoughts? Comments? Am I sounding like a total idiot here, or have I manged pretty well on my own so far?

Thanks, your input is greatly appreciated!

 

[Garbz]

DACs are normally used to upgrade a source and in my opinion it's worse to use a cheap source + dac then it is to use the built in analogue outputs of a good source. This is because of the conversions between different formats, the extra power supply and cables in the signal path, and the generally complex and bad implimentation of S/PDIF interfaces for a digital connection.

If you have money left over for a DAC, you may want to consider buying a better CD player to begin with. It will probably be much less hassle.

Other then that for a DAC apply the same listening rules as a CDplayer. I.e. toss the specs out the window and listen with your ears, and most importantly find somewhere to try before you buy or even better a money back guarantee.

 

[BradJudy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C38368 For a first source, I'm leaning strongly towards either an Onix XCD-88 or a Music Hall MMF CD-25.2. Yeah, I know they're the same basic unit, but either way...

These players are not the same basic unit. The XCD-88 is the same basic unit as the CD-25, both are OEM versions of the Shanling CD-S100. The CD-25.2 uses a different transport and DAC than the XCD-88/CD-25/CD-S100.

 

[Chri5peed]

Lol, I'd like to know what a DAC does/is.

I understand music on a CD is digital and headphones/speakers aren't, so every CDplayer/DAP has a DAC of sorts built-in. Vinyl music is analogue, so no DACs in record players?

So if you buy a $1000 Stereo, why bother with getting another dearer DAC?

Hit me with technical terrms, I'm an electrician.

 

[videocrew]

music is stored on CD in a digital format. all that is on the cd is a series of 0's and 1's. Certainly nothing resembling audio (well maybe techno

). Anyway, you have to have a device to convert the digital on the CD to analog that can go into an amp. The most important thing to realize is that ALL cd players have this digital to analog converter built in (if any "experts" feel the need to pitch in about dedicated transports, shut up, don't confuse the issue, besides, these are transports, not cd players). Therefore, you do not NEED a DAC. Now, if your cd player has a digital output, it is possible to add an external DAC to the CD player. This will avoid using the DAC and output stage inside the cd player and instead move it to an external box. However, this is an upgrade only, and is not necessary. If you're just starting out and buying an XCD-88 or some other well-regarded cd player, you CERTAINLY don't need a DAC. You'll probably be very happy with the DAC inside the player, as that is what has been getting rave reviews, the player itself. So take it easy, no reason to get on the DAC train yet.

 

[Chri5peed]

Thanks video. I'd rather spend my money on sexy looking headphones anyway!

So are we immediately in the world of diminishing returns as soon as we buy a DAC?

 

[americandreaming]

both of those players are said to do a very nice job of converting digital and the addition of a dac would be very minimal (and not necessarily better). i would only suggest a separate dac if you are using lossless files from a hard drive in addition to cds, although even in this case a nice soundcard would probably do the trick.

if you still really feel the need to spend some your dollars i would recommend dropping what you would have spent for the dac on a nice turntable, a rega, musichall or pro-ject. with the tubes and the grado i think this would be a great combination. my $.02

 

[C38368]

@videocrew~ Thanks for putting it that way (or, read another way, knocking some sense into me)

@americandreaming~ Thanks for the input. I'm currently using my PC as my source, but I'm trying to get a dedicated system going. I think I like your suggesting to forgo a DAC right now and get a turntable instead better. Not that I really *need* one any more than a DAC, but at least then I could digitise some of the stuff I have on vinyl, I suppose

@BradJudy~ Yes, I know this. I also know that I don't need to split hairs over it. As far as my question was concerned (for me, anyway), they're the same basic unit. That's rather like saying an Accord LX V-6 isn't the same basic car as an Accord EX, because the former has more cylinders.

 

[Chri5peed]

I'm considering getting a new PC in the 'near' future, next 6 months...

I'm going for just a Tower and I'd planned on getting a tasty soundcard and a big HDD so I could put all my music on it in WAV or similar.

Would this do the job? The soundcard will be amped with my SM3.

I'm setting aside maybe £600 for the Tower. Which should equate to a top of the line beast, but how much does a really good soundcard cost? If its substantial I'd rather cut other stuff to keep the cost at £600.

 

[BradJudy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C38368 @BradJudy~ Yes, I know this. I also know that I don't need to split hairs over it. As far as my question was concerned (for me, anyway), they're the same basic unit. That's rather like saying an Accord LX V-6 isn't the same basic car as an Accord EX, because the former has more cylinders.

Since you were asking about DACs, it seemed important to point out that those players use different DACs.

To complete the analogy, it's like a car with a different engine (transport) and different transmission (DAC). I don't know if the analog output stage (wheels and tires) is the same or different. Considering we're talking about the core components of the player, at what point would you consider them to be different basic units? To me, the engine and transimssion make more of a difference than the exterior appearance.

 

[C38368]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BradJudy Since you were asking about DACs, it seemed important to point out that those players use different DACs. To complete the analogy, it's like a car with a different engine (transport) and different transmission (DAC). I don't know if the analog output stage (wheels and tires) is the same or different. Considering we're talking about the core components of the player, at what point would you consider them to be different basic units? To me, the engine and transimssion make more of a difference than the exterior appearance.

Put that way, I see your point. As you can see, I'm still trying to get everything nailed down in it's proper place.
Sorry if I came off as a bit snarky

 

[americandreaming]

Quote:

Originally Posted by C38368 @americandreaming~ Thanks for the input. I'm currently using my PC as my source, but I'm trying to get a dedicated system going.

if all of your music is on your pc, my advice is a bit different. get a dac instead of the cd player. maybe an art dio or ack dack (i have the monica II dac but that requires wiring up, casing, and a power supply). people seem to like the emu soundcards and they're inexpensive. an alternative, which could be a nice solution, is a nice cd player that also has a digital input, to do the dac duties from your pc. i'm not sure if either of those players has that but you could ask here in the forums.

IMO, buying a turntable to digitize the music is the wrong way to look at it. buy it to enjoy the sound that $$$ dacs aspire to and for an opportunity to turn off your computer for a while.

 

[BradJudy]

Actually, if all of your music is on your PC and it's running most/all of the time. Getting something like a SqueezeBox2 or Roku would allow you to start having a dedicated system while leveraging the files on your PC for easy access to your music.

The SqueezeBox2 has a good reputation for sound quality and there are a couple of companies doing mods to further improve the SQ.

 

[C38368]

Quote:

Originally Posted by americandreaming if all of your music is on your pc, my advice is a bit different. get a dac instead of the cd player. maybe an art dio or ack dack (i have the monica II dac but that requires wiring up, casing, and a power supply). people seem to like the emu soundcards and they're inexpensive. an alternative, which could be a nice solution, is a nice cd player that also has a digital input, to do the dac duties from your pc. i'm not sure if either of those players has that but you could ask here in the forums. IMO, buying a turntable to digitize the music is the wrong way to look at it. buy it to enjoy the sound that $$$ dacs aspire to and for an opportunity to turn off your computer for a while.

My music is on my PC as much for lack of something else to play it on as anything (though it's all ripped to FLAC from CD). That and the fact that I've grown very paranoid about losing CDs since I started spending far too much on certain albums (you know the sort--no longer in print, imports, limited editions or whatever).
The whole reason I'm looking for a dedicated set of components is so that I *can* turn my PC off now and again, something I currently cannot do if I want to listen to music on anything other than my Karma.
It's crossed my mind to ignore the CD player for now and just get a DAC, but now I wonder just how cost effective that would be (of course, I now see how inexpensive the Art Dio is...). A dAck! is more than I'd like to spend on any one component just yet, and would by itself would still require me to keep my PC on all the time (did I mention that I like overclocking just as much as I like music?).

With respect to turntables, I'm not only looking at them in order to digitise music, although that is a part of it (as with CDs, I have quite a few picture LPs that feature LP-only tracks; I don't want to play these regularly, but I do want the songs). And again, I've got an eye out for preservation here, as well. In other cases, I'd like to have a turntable to listen to the plain old (boring?) regular vinyl I have.

I feel like I'm running around in circles here. Yech.
But you think that sticking with my PC for now, and then adding a DAC + amp would be a better solution than moving to a dedicated player just yet?

Quick edit~ Just looked up the SqueezeBox2/Roku... gears are again churning. Thanks for that info, too

 

[Scrith]

There are several nice CD/SACD players with digital inputs.