DAC recommendations: Returning audio enthusiast: Audio-GD vs other offerings

[sr2002]

So, after going back and forth on the SMSL M8 and the Audio Engine D1 DAC, I'm quite tempted and my greed to have the absolute best (that I can stretch to afford) has kicked in and I am now considering DACs in the 300-600$ price range. 
 
Based on the extensive reading I did for past week, It seems the ES9018 and WM8740/8741 seem to be the top ranking audiophile DACs out there (please feel free to suggest other chips that I may have overlooked). 
My setup:
(I used to have a Harman Kardon AVR 3490 + Polk Monitor 70 floor standing speakers)
Windows Desktop PC + LSR305  + Future USB DAC
I also own a Macbook air which will also be another device I'll connect to. 
 
My requirements:
1) Must have USB + Optical In 
2) Outputs should preferably be XLR/TRS balanced 
3) Should not be as large as an AV Receiver. 
4) Audio latency should be good enough to play videos/games without audio sync problems
5) DSD audio? I have really never used DSD, infact I have never used anything like Foobar or Asio, I've mostly listened to CDs and MP3s till now, so I'm clueless if DSD is good to have
 
DACs I'm currently considering: ( Please post your comments on these devices and comparison between them) 
1) Audio-GD NFB-11 (my top choice given the low price)
2) Audio-GD NFB-1DAC (I'm drooling on and has balanced out, but will require me to sell something to offset the cost lol)
3) Cambridge Audio DacMagic Plus (Balanced out: Don't know about the sound quality of the dual WM8740s or is it WM8742 I forgot)
4) Music Hall DAC-25.3 (No idea on its hardware specs / sound quality. Please fill me in on it if you have experience)
5) Gustard X12: (I'm assuming similar performance to the NFB-11, but I don't know how good this company is)
 
So I wanted to ask the following questions: 
 
Will there be any noticeable benefit between the entry level DACs like the D1 and something like the Audio-GD NFB-11 2015v.?
(Again out of greed and temptation) I was thinking about the NFB-1DAC which is twice as expensive as the NFB-11, any thoughts on this? Is it worth it for my application?
Any other notable competitors to the NFB-11 or NFB-1DAC with similar chips and similar price point?
How reliable are the Audio-GD products/driver software compatibilty? Anyone have any longterm feedback on their units? 
 
I was considering the Schiit, but being made in America their manufacturing costs are too high and hence too expensive to get a decently respectable hardware. 
 
Please pardon me for the long post, but I'm really particular with my audio selection and I take long periods of time before I make a decision  

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

So I wanted to ask the following questions: 

 

Will there be any noticeable benefit between the entry level DACs like the D1 and something like the Audio-GD NFB-11 2015v.?

 

Only if you were using a headphone that, to get to your preferred listening level, gets the D1 to its audible distortion level, which will be a lot sooner than the NFB-11. If you're listening at very low levels on both, or you're using a Grado with a low impedance but very high sensitivity, it's highly unlikely you'll notice a difference.

 

When it comes to the other features, there aren't likely a lot of difference, ie as a DAC and preamp. Most differences past each headphone's response are due to amp distortion and if you are not using the headphone amp on the D1 or even the NFB-11 then this isn't important.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

(Again out of greed and temptation) I was thinking about the NFB-1DAC which is twice as expensive as the NFB-11, any thoughts on this? Is it worth it for my application?

 

You pay double the price, but no preamp function on the NFB-1 so when you change the volume level, you will still have to get up, move one LS305, twist the dial on the back, put it back into place, move to the other LS305, twist the dial, put it back, sit down, realize they aren't at the proper toe-in level, so you get up, adjust, sit down, not quite identical toe-in...so on and so forth.

 

If you want balanced preamp outputs, then as long as you don't need a powerful headphone amplifier you'll get more bang for your buck with an audio interface like the Scarlett 2i2.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I was considering the Schiit, but being made in America their manufacturing costs are too high and hence too expensive to get a decently respectable hardware. 

 

Or maybe the owners don't need huge profit margins to line their own wallets so they can afford to pay US wages with quality craftsmanship (as best as you can go for anything that is relatively mass manufactured) without jacking up the price, while they've worked out a lot of the details to make their operations more cost-efficient. Depending on where you are (apart from features), shipping from China and then having to ship it back to China for warranties can be more expensive than paying a small premium for Schiit. Also, Schiit doesn't need suicide nets in any of its buildings, while the device you typed that post in probably has one (ex. if your laptop has a fruit on it).

 

If you're in Europe, check out the Meier DACcord, or Violectric products.

 

[Phryq]

I just bought a MIYO, and would recommend it over anything. $250 Dac/Amp great sound, though it doesn't do XLR.

 

[sr2002]

 

 

Only if you were using a headphone that, to get to your preferred listening level, gets the D1 to its audible distortion level, which will be a lot sooner than the NFB-11. If you're listening at very low levels on both, or you're using a Grado with a low impedance but very high sensitivity, it's highly unlikely you'll notice a difference.

 

When it comes to the other features, there aren't likely a lot of difference, ie as a DAC and preamp. Most differences past each headphone's response are due to amp distortion and if you are not using the headphone amp on the D1 or even the NFB-11 then this isn't important.

 

 

You pay double the price, but no preamp function on the NFB-1 so when you change the volume level, you will still have to get up, move one LS305, twist the dial on the back, put it back into place, move to the other LS305, twist the dial, put it back, sit down, realize they aren't at the proper toe-in level, so you get up, adjust, sit down, not quite identical toe-in...so on and so forth.

 

If you want balanced preamp outputs, then as long as you don't need a powerful headphone amplifier you'll get more bang for your buck with an audio interface like the Scarlett 2i2.

 

 

 

Or maybe the owners don't need huge profit margins to line their own wallets so they can afford to pay US wages with quality craftsmanship (as best as you can go for anything that is relatively mass manufactured) without jacking up the price, while they've worked out a lot of the details to make their operations more cost-efficient. Depending on where you are (apart from features), shipping from China and then having to ship it back to China for warranties can be more expensive than paying a small premium for Schiit. Also, Schiit doesn't need suicide nets in any of its buildings, while the device you typed that post in probably has one (ex. if your laptop has a fruit on it).

 

If you're in Europe, check out the Meier DACcord, or Violectric products.

Thanks for the reply. As for the volume control problem that you mentioned, I was planning to use windows volume control to control the DAC's volume, which worked when I used a Steinberg UR22MkII, which is similar to the Scarlet 2i2. I am assuming all the DACs mentioned, NFB-11, NFB-1DAC, Gustard X12 and Cambridge DacMagic Plus will be controllable through windows volume control (please correct me if I'm wrong). In the future I might buy a small headphone/analog volume control (although unbalanced). Because, I do plan to add a headphone amp and buy good headphones in the future, I currently have the Audio Technica M50x. I am looking for a DAC that I can keep using even if I upgrade to a more sophistricated setup later on, so thats why I'm looking for standalone features like build in power/self powered/ Optical/Coax inputs and good quality DAC chips. I might buy a AV receiver later on from HK or Yamaha, so I want the DAC I buy now to be better in terms of quality than the ones in these AV receivers or even the usual audio interfaces. 
 
I agree with your comment on the fact that Schiit might end up being better considering customer service and the company's ethics, but with the Schiit, the cheapest one with balanced outs is the gungnir, which costs 800+$ and is totally out of my current budget. 
 
I will checkout DACcord and Violectric, but I'm located in the U.S.
 
Any experiences using the Gustard X12 or Cambridge Plus. I'm really interested in the Gustard X12 and Cambdridge actually, but there is very little info and only a couple of reviews, driver support seems sketchy with the Gustard.
 
Another question that popped up in my head, all these DACs that have the XMOS USB controller, do they all have a unified driver for Windows that will work with any DAC that has this controller or do I still need to rely on the manufacturer for proprietary driver? 

 

[Triplefun]

Windows volume control changes the frequency response of the attached device. Each XMOS implementation requires its licensed driver - there is no generic driver. Gustard is reputable and has a dedicated following. I strongly suggest you use a good preamp to front the dac as opposed to going straight to a power amp.

 

[sr2002]

So, if I buy the Gustard X12 alone, and connect it in the following manner:
 
PC=>USB=>Gustard=>Balanced out=>LSR305
 
What would be my options to control volume? Also, is there any way to add a analog volume controll module for balanced out? Any suggestions? 
 
Secondly, does Gustard have their own website? I could not find any resources or dedicted driver support page except for links to Baidu and google drive on Shenzenaudio website. 
 
In short the dilemma I'm facing is, will choosing Gustard over Audio-Gd be of any benefit? I am little worried about audio-gd because of the whole shipping to China thing and plus the audio-gd NFB-1DAC which is comparable to Gustard X12 is almost 200$ more expensive. 
 
Any comment on the Cambridge audio plus DAC or the music Hall? 

 

[sr2002]

To further add to the confusion, I recently stumbled upon this Gustard X9 on the Shenzhenaudio website.
http://www.shenzhenaudio.com/gustard-dac-x9-xmos-dsd-usb-balanced-analog-decoder-double-parallel-wm8741.html
 
Does anyone have any thoughts on this, its really well priced and seems to have the same features as the X12 except the WM8741 chips

 

[Triplefun]

The Gustard X12 is an excellent DAC based on the Sabre ES9018 chip with a good analogue stage and supports DSD. It also includes a digital volume control but no remote. The X9 is a lot older, is based on dual WM8741 and bears near identical resemblance to the acclaimed Rein Audio X3-DAC (sans an ASRC module and some Rhodium) and also supports DSD. The Sabre is more detailed than the warmer Wolfson. Gustard now supports the X20 which has a rotary volume control. If you are only using LSR305 speakers I would strongly suggest you save your money and go with either the SMSL M8 or even a DAC from HiFiMeDIY (eg. http://hifimediy.com/9018D-dac) - I don't think you will hear much difference compared to a more expensive DAC.

 

[sr2002]

 
The Gustard X12 is an excellent DAC based on the Sabre ES9018 chip with a good analogue stage and supports DSD. It also includes a digital volume control but no remote. The X9 is a lot older, is based on dual WM8741 and bears near identical resemblance to the acclaimed Rein Audio X3-DAC (sans an ASRC module and some Rhodium) and also supports DSD. The Sabre is more detailed than the warmer Wolfson. Gustard now supports the X20 which has a rotary volume control. If you are only using LSR305 speakers I would strongly suggest you save your money and go with either the SMSL M8 or even a DAC from HiFiMeDIY (eg. http://hifimediy.com/9018D-dac) - I don't think you will hear much difference compared to a more expensive DAC.

 
Thanks for that info. The reason I was looking at a high end offering rather than a budget DAC like the SMSL Or Audioengine D1, is because I will be upgrading my speakers in the future and might get a pair of good headphones too. Plus, I have a mental condition where if I know I don't have a good hardware, I feel very uncomfortable and then I end up buying the high end option later on anyway. So instead of buying an entry level DAC now for 200$ and then feeling bad and then again going ahead and buying a high end later on (I know myself too well to predict that I most likely will), I'd rather buy a good dac now and spend on better amp/speakers/headphones later ...
 
I asked this question in another thread too but I'll ask it hear again, can these DACs like the Gustard or Audio-gd serve as good external sound card for mp3s, youtube or PC gaming? In short can I use it for day to day stuff without constantly fidling with drivers and settings? 
And how well does the X12 stack against the Audio-gd NFB-1DAC which seems similar on specs but is 200$ more ?
Also, any comment on Gustard's after sales service? Like driver support/warranty etc?

 

[sr2002]

I tried to add your quote in my reply but it got flagged for have the external link. 
 
So, I'm gonna write another reply(might feel like a repetition).
 
I also saw your post on the SMSL M8 thread. The thing is if I go for a something like a SMSL M8 or audioengine D1, I will constantly have thoughts in the back of my head about " what if I would spent a little more" with the X12 or NFB-1DAC, I will get the satisfaction of owning something that is custom made (not consumer grade mass produced) and which is essentially an end game DAC unless of course I spent 2000$ or something (which I dont think I ever will). 
When it comes to audio products, I get very analytical and hate to settle for anything that I have even the slightest doubt about. 
 
As for the volume control problem that you mentioned, I found a solution from Emotiva, their balanced volume controller (Control freak), which retails for 60$ish, what you think of it? 
The other things that I had asked in the post that got flagged were:
 
Does the Gustard X12, NFB-1DAC have the capability of being run as an everyday external sound card? I am also planing to use this for youtube videos, mp3 and gaming. Will it require constant fidling of the driver for different media? Also, what is the Latency like with these DACs? Will I notice any audio sync issues? 
Does the X12 work as standalone unit for optical as well as USB or does it require the U12 USB converter thing in the middle? 
 
And finally, can you comment on the post sale service for Gustard? They dont seem to have any support site or customer service phone number. What is your personal experience with Gustard over a long term ownership, is it reliable? 

 

[Triplefun]

No matter what DAC you buy you will always think you could do better - especially if you believe what you read in reviews. Variations in high end DACs seem to primarily influence the width, depth, height and positioning of the sound stage. The Sabre DAC signature sound is somewhat bright and very detailed. DSD upsampling will give you superior bass definition. The law of diminishing returns is especially prevalent especially when you start looking at cables, USB processors (eg. the Gustard U12) and USB cleaners (eg. regen).
 
The DAC is USB only and typically requires interface with a ASIO driver to work. Not all software supports an ASIO driver. Products like Foobar and JRiver provide lots of options for configuring the output.  Your best bet will be probably to use your PC optical output to the DAC for normal playback (eg. Youtube and gaming - this will be limited to 24 bit / 96Khz ?); and the USB output for ASIO enabled devices and playback through specialised audio software with DSD upsampling.
 
On my PC I have an ASUS DSX sound card for video, gaming and browser; and ASIO USB for sound though the DAC. I bought a second hand Cambridge Audio receiver (Azur 340r, no HDMI), Energy Take 5.1 speakers and Boston subwoofer. The receiver gives me a volume control, stereo playback for the DAC, and the option of 5.1 sound for video playback.

 

[Triplefun]

  And finally, can you comment on the post sale service for Gustard? They dont seem to have any support site or customer service phone number. What is your personal experience with Gustard over a long term ownership, is it reliable? 

The Gustard support is limited but the Head FI gustard sites will provide you with lots of support as required. Most Gustard vendors offer a warranty with return. But the build quality of the products is truly excellent ( I have purchased an X10, U12 and X20u with no issues) and there have been very few cases of the need for returns. Most issues stem from implementation and configuration, especially Windows management of the drivers.
 
If you want a long term DAC solution for your PC I strongly suggest you look at a Tanly USB (google tanlyaudio) interface (in preference to the Gustard U12 providing i2s signal to the DAC. You can then begin to realise the true potential of the DAC.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Thanks for the reply. As for the volume control problem that you mentioned, I was planning to use windows volume control to control the DAC's volume, which worked when I used a Steinberg UR22MkII, which is similar to the Scarlet 2i2. I am assuming all the DACs mentioned, NFB-11, NFB-1DAC, Gustard X12 and Cambridge DacMagic Plus will be controllable through windows volume control (please correct me if I'm wrong). In the future I might buy a small headphone/analog volume control (although unbalanced). 

 

The NFB-11 has a preamp output - its volume control will be easier to reach, you just set the gain on the speakers. Just make sure you have the proper setting as it has a switch on the front - one for headphone output and one for preamp output in the rear (which means you don't need to unplug the headphones), and the other setting is for a DAC-direct output that bypasses the preamp as well. No need for a passive analogue preamp with the NFB-11.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

In the future I might buy a small headphone/analog volume control (although unbalanced). Because, I do plan to add a headphone amp and buy good headphones in the future, I currently have the Audio Technica M50x. I am looking for a DAC that I can keep using even if I upgrade to a more sophistricated setup later on, so thats why I'm looking for standalone features like build in power/self powered/ Optical/Coax inputs and good quality DAC chips. I might buy a AV receiver later on from HK or Yamaha, so I want the DAC I buy now to be better in terms of quality than the ones in these AV receivers or even the usual audio interfaces. 

 

Well there are a few problems with your plan.

First, let's say you get the NFB-1 - how do you plan on adding a volume control there later? You'd have to get a passive preamp at best, but AFAIK they're all SE, not balanced, so you'll use the SE outputs to the speakers, but what you want is balanced output. If you want balanced output then you'll need a balanced amplifier with a preamp output.

 

If you get the NFB-11, there's really not much of a problem using the SE output into a balanced input (if your monitors don't have SE inputs), you just need to find the right RCA to TRS cable. It has a powerful headphone amplifier in it already, so there's practically little gain to be made spending more save for using it on very hard to drive headphones.

 

The easiest and most convenient way actually would be to just spend a little bit more (or save up more and spend a little later) and just get something like the AudioGD NFB-10.33 or the NFB-28. Those are basically a lot like the NFB-11 in terms of features, but with a Balanced circuit. They're ready for practically any headphone you throw at them save for electrostats.
 
 
 
 

  Thanks for the reply. As for the volume control problem that you mentioned, I was planning to use windows volume control to control the DAC's volume, which worked when I used a Steinberg UR22MkII, which is similar to the Scarlet 2i2. I am assuming all the DACs mentioned, NFB-11, NFB-1DAC, Gustard X12 and Cambridge DacMagic Plus will be controllable through windows volume control (please correct me if I'm wrong). In the future I might buy a small headphone/analog volume control (although unbalanced). Because, I do plan to add a headphone amp and buy good headphones in the future, I currently have the Audio Technica M50x. I am looking for a DAC that I can keep using even if I upgrade to a more sophistricated setup later on, so thats why I'm looking for standalone features like build in power/self powered/ Optical/Coax inputs and good quality DAC chips. I might buy a AV receiver later on from HK or Yamaha, so I want the DAC I buy now to be better in terms of quality than the ones in these AV receivers or even the usual audio interfaces. 
 
I agree with your comment on the fact that Schiit might end up being better considering customer service and the company's ethics, but with the Schiit, the cheapest one with balanced outs is the gungnir, which costs 800+$ and is totally out of my current budget. 
 
I will checkout DACcord and Violectric, but I'm located in the U.S.
 
Any experiences using the Gustard X12 or Cambridge Plus. I'm really interested in the Gustard X12 and Cambdridge actually, but there is very little info and only a couple of reviews, driver support seems sketchy with the Gustard.
 
Another question that popped up in my head, all these DACs that have the XMOS USB controller, do they all have a unified driver for Windows that will work with any DAC that has this controller or do I still need to rely on the manufacturer for proprietary driver? 
 

 

[sr2002]

@ProtegeManiac
Thanks for that advice. I hadn't originally considered the 10.33, but isnt this an older model? What concerns is the availability of drivers for the USB-32 device. (which is also a concern with NFB-11).
What is your take on the USB-32 vs XMOS used on the other DACs? 
The NFB-28 looks perfect for my application but, its too darn expensive, the NFB-1DAC itself is going to be stretch for me. 
 
Secondly, based on the reading I have done, I'm a fan of bright sounding audio, which seems to be the trait of the ES9018 chips and the 10.33 uses the WM8741, which people say are more warm sounding. 
 
For volume control on the balanced output, I was planing to use the Emotiva Control freak which is a passive balanced volume controller, any thoughts on that? 
 
My plan was to buy either the Gustard X12 or the NFB-1DAC connect the balanced output through the control freak to my monitors and use the RCA jacks to connect to a portable headphone amp or something from Schiit. Would this work? 
 
I asked this in another thread as well, I'll ask it again, can you please tell me how much of difference balanced vs RCA would make in real world give the RCA cable won't be longer than 6 feet. Are there any good quality sheilded RCA options that might be close to XLR quality? 
 
Honestly the USB-32 and absence of Balanced out are the only two things stopping me from buying the NFB-11. But if its just me being paranoid/it wont make a noticeable difference I would totally consider the NFB-11. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

@ProtegeManiac

Thanks for that advice. I hadn't originally considered the 10.33, but isnt this an older model? What concerns is the availability of drivers for the USB-32 device. (which is also a concern with NFB-11).

What is your take on the USB-32 vs XMOS used on the other DACs? 

The NFB-28 looks perfect for my application but, its too darn expensive, the NFB-1DAC itself is going to be stretch for me. 

 

The NFB-28 looks expensive vs the NFB-1 but you're still not thinking of this in its entirety. The NFB-28 is all you'll need, comparing it with the NFB-1 isn't the whole picture since if you're getting the NFB-1, you'll need a passive attenuator plus a headphone amp. Why not just save a bit more and get one quality device that has everything in it, rather than one good DAC and then have to compromise on the headphone amp (which will limit what headphones you will get later) or get a separate passive preamp?

 

It might be too complex to visualize so I'll lay it out.

 

NFB-28                      $750+shipping from AudioGD

Total                          $750+shipping from AudioGD

 

 

NFB-1DAC                     $650+shipping from AudioGD

Emotiva Control Freaq     $ 50+shipping from Emotiva, or $60 (free shipping with Amazon Prime)

Schiit magni2 Uber          $150+shipping from Schiit, or $180 (free shipping with Amazon Prime) 

Total                              $850+shipping from AudioGD, Emotiva, and Schiit; or $890+shipping from AudioGD

 

Best case scenario price difference = ($890+Shipping from AudioGD) - ($750+Shipping from AudioGD)

Best case scenario price difference = ($890+Shipping from AudioGD) - ($750+Shipping from AudioGD)

Best case scenario price difference = $890 - $750

Best case scenario price difference = $140

 

See, if $750 is really expensive for you, then why would $890 be better? Just save up now and spend later on what will end up saving you at least $140.

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

Secondly, based on the reading I have done, I'm a fan of bright sounding audio, which seems to be the trait of the ES9018 chips and the 10.33 uses the WM8741, which people say are more warm sounding. 

 

Then get the NFB-28, note my points above.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

For volume control on the balanced output, I was planing to use the Emotiva Control freak which is a passive balanced volume controller, any thoughts on that? 

 

My plan was to buy either the Gustard X12 or the NFB-1DAC connect the balanced output through the control freak to my monitors and use the RCA jacks to connect to a portable headphone amp or something from Schiit. Would this work?

 

Honestly the USB-32 and absence of Balanced out are the only two things stopping me from buying the NFB-11. But if its just me being paranoid/it wont make a noticeable difference I would totally consider the NFB-11. 

 

 

Note the points I raised at the start of this post. Also, a portable headphone amp? If you go for harder to drive headphones or higher impedance headphones the kind of portable amp with enough power will cost at least around the price of the Magni2 (not the Uber), and even then likely it will only work well enough with a high impedance, high sensitivity headphone, rather than a low impedance, low sensitivity headphone. On top of that now you have to run another cable, and most portables will only use 3.5mm, so that's another mess of wires and this one with an adapter.

 

 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif

 

I asked this in another thread as well, I'll ask it again, can you please tell me how much of difference balanced vs RCA would make in real world give the RCA cable won't be longer than 6 feet. Are there any good quality sheilded RCA options that might be close to XLR quality? 

 

None but if the active monitors only take balanced input then I'd much rather use a balanced signal. if it's really that expensive I'd take a risk with a single-ended DAC-HPamp-Preamp unit that is not known to have issues feeding a signal into said speakers. Hence, the NFB-11.
 
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sr2002 /img/forum/go_quote.gif
 
What is your take on the USB-32 vs XMOS used on the other DACs? 

 
I only have one on 32bit audio in general: studios only use 24/96 for mastering so far, and proper mastering and recording is a lot more important than using 32bits. As it is you'd more likely find pop/modern/non-audiophile studio music on 32bits thanks to the high-res craze but that won't mean they'd master it properly, so honestly what's the point.