Dac Help
Apr 8, 2013 at 9:00 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 11

Leagg

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What is a Dac for, do i just jack my headphones in it or what? Example i have Ath AD700 and JVC HAS500, could i get http://www.head-fi.org/products/hrt-music-streamer-ii-high-resolution-usb-d-a-converter and just plug the 3.5mm plugs in it and have it plugged into my PC?
 
Apr 9, 2013 at 8:35 AM Post #3 of 11
Instead of linking a wikipedia page couldn't you have just answered the question? I have looked for the answer and i couldn't find it that is why i asked here.
 
Apr 9, 2013 at 9:25 AM Post #4 of 11
Quote:
Instead of linking a wikipedia page couldn't you have just answered the question? I have looked for the answer and i couldn't find it that is why i asked here.

Not to be mean, but really?  Either way, this should help you out:
 
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+a+dac
 
I think you'll find that every result on the first page except the one about truckers should answer your question
 
Apr 9, 2013 at 11:18 AM Post #5 of 11
Quote:
Instead of linking a wikipedia page couldn't you have just answered the question? I have looked for the answer and i couldn't find it that is why i asked here.


Well, he just found it for you, right?
gs1000.gif
Anyways if you still find the terminologies in the Wikipedia article too confusing or otherwise the article isn't spelling it out well enough, I'll try to make it a bit more concise for you:

(BTW several links in kingoftown1's link will have the same info, just written differently)
 
Quote:
What is a Dac for...?

 


I. DAC - Digital to Analogue Converter. In terms of music and video, modern copies are in digital code - essentially 1's and 0's - that a computer, loosely defined, has to interpret, which in this case is a DAC turning it into an analog electric signal, that can run the rest of the system up through the amplifier and into your speakers and headphones.
 
II. DAC can refer to at least two things.
a. The actual DAC chip, which is the single microchip that will do such a conversion within a circuit. Any digital media player of any kind, unless it is expressly referred to strictly as a dedicated transport (which means all it does is read aloud the 1's and 0's then pass it on to another device to 'interpret), has achip like this, and their architectures vary. An iPod has a DAC, a CD player has a DAC, heck a computer has a DAC in the soundcard.

b. A device that includes a DAC chip, which functions as a separate device that decodes the signal. There are many reasons why this came out separately. From an extreme engineering standpoint, you separate the transport and the DAC to isolate each power supply as well as from each other's noise. Some CDPs have two power supplies, but some may argue the whirring mechanical transport can introduce noise into the sensitive DAC section. From a more practical sense, a separate DAC can turn allow any well-built, functioning transport to sound "good" - an older CDP with a new DAC back in the day (but of course the transport's mechanical parts wear out first), but these days, the variety of potential transports are too diverse - video players, media players, desktop and notebook computers, even tablets and mobile phones (if they have the right hardware and software).
 
Note : In the same sense, the term transport is the same way, in that there is the actual transport mechanism that spins your CD's, which all disc players have, and is what a computer drive is; and in the same sense there is a stand-alone dedicated transport, which is a CD player or HDD-based player without a DAC in its circuit that passes on the sound. In this sense, a computer used to send digital audio to a DAC essentially becomes a transport device.
 
III. Function : on a basic fucntion described, that's Pt. I. Now given nearly anything you have that can play digital media has a DAC of some kind, what's a separate DAC - as in Pt. II-b for? Well, some of these DACs have compromises. For one, the DAC in almost all portable players tend to have the headphone amplifier chip integrated into it. That saves space for a device people want to jam in their pockets while holding as much music as possible. Then they run off the same battery that powers everything on that player, like the screen.  Ditto a laptop, maybe even some soundcards. A separate DAC will have its own PSU and or battery, and instead of a chip that tries to be the earphone amplifier, where ear- and headphones have a varying impedance from as low as 6ohms to 600ohms, a separate DAC can get the appropriate signal to an amplifier, which in turn should be chosen based on the specs/needs of your earphones or headphones (or speakers, as the case may be).
 
Quote:
...do i just jack my headphones in it or what?...

 
IV. Have you seen a receiver from, say, the 1970s? How about the 1980s? Home theater receivers? Integrated amplifiers? All of these are technically, or have, amplifiers for speakers, but the terms refer to differences in features crammed into the box. Just like DACs, "amplifier" can be one device or one part of a device. In this case, you can have just a basic poweramp, which requires a preamp and a proper source (a transport and DAC for digital, whether separate or not); a 1970s receiver has an AM/FM tuner built into the same box; a 1980s receiver  might already include a DAC so it takes a digital input; from (back then) a CDP player; a home theater receiver has a processor and a preamp to control the amp; what has been referred to as an integrated amplifier has the amplifier circuit AND the preamp in the same box.
 
Now look at Pt III and Pt II-b again. When I said the DAC converts the 1's and 0's into an electrical signal, it passes it on to an amplifier circuit, to make it stronger in terms of driving a headphone or speaker. In the sense of how I started Pt IV, you could have a device that is a dedicated DAC, or one that has several circuits in it, in this sense, a DAC and an amp*. Some will have one power supply for both, others will have one each, some basically has a better DAC or a better amp depending on what you're willing to pay for more, either way the amp must be able to drive your ear/headphones.

*Note : headphone systems' amps refer to, basically, an integrated amp, because they don't usually put the preamp and amplifier in separate
boxes.
 
Quote:
could i get http://www.head-fi.org/products/hrt-music-streamer-ii-high-resolution-usb-d-a-converter and just plug the 3.5mm plugs in it and have it plugged into my PC?
 
...do i just jack my headphones in it or what?...
 

 
V. In the case of this device, no, you do not just jack it in there. Go back to Pts III and II-b. The analog signal a dedicated DAC and a dedicated amp puts out are not the same.  For one, the HRT DAC there makes a 2.25v signal, which is slightly higher than Sony's 16-bit CD standard 2v, with no preamp. It doesn't even have a 3.5mm jack to jack into. A basic CMOY amplifier can probably put out more than that in voltage swing, and even if you use an adapter and find it goes really loud, it's most likely the absence of a preamp than anything else, which is why it might distort, or why it's too loud to begin with. This would be more obvious on a more complex load, ie, a headphone where the impedance varies too far from the stated nominal impedance that is quoted on the box depending on the dynamic range and frequency it's playing. Also, you may notice DACs and other sources have their analog outputs rated in voltage, while an amplifier's is rated in Watts (or mW for headphones) and voltage is stated in voltage swing, regarding how well it can handle sudden loud notes to sound that much louder over the average loudness of all the rest.

So basically, you'd need an amplifier for that.
 
Apr 9, 2013 at 3:40 PM Post #6 of 11
Thank you very much for the in depth explanation! The other two people i only posted here cause i couldn't find/understand the websites to answer my question.
 
Apr 10, 2013 at 9:25 PM Post #8 of 11
Quote:
Update, So what do i need to upgrade my sound from onboard. Dac, preamp, amp ect i have no clue.

 
1. DAC - you need this mostly because onboard sound is generally noisy or doesn't measure flat. Or both. Some people say the DAC (or CDP) is the least important, but not everyone who says that refer to a motherboard's soundcard vs a DAC, but as a piece of advice for someone stressing over a choice between a $400 DAC, a well regarded <$200 one that is more like a kit, and a $2000 with all the bells and whistles. For me, the jump from onboard sound to either of the first two is immediately audible (but of course not to everyone); from these to $2000, I'm one to think I'd rather spend that money for a DAC if I'm running a full-size speaker set-up in a dedicated room. Why? It's much easier to appreciate the difference, if there are any significant differences, because in such a system a more accurate DAC with good speakers and a transparent amp tends to make the overall system better at imaging and soundstaging*. While not absent in headphones, and stage size alone isn't everything, it's more along the lines of "if I have $2000 for just the DAC, then maybe I should also have $5000 for the speakers, amplifier, and room." Personal bias, of course - maybe I'd sing a different tune if I have more money, and by that I mean I already have a $20,000 speaker system - room treatments included - so a $5,000 headphone system will make sense to me.
 
*Refer to the online glossary for more details, but basically your system should be capable of replicating the position of each instrument to scale. Meaning no matter what they say about speakers having a larger stage vs headphones, even speakers are reproducing to scale, unless your listening room is, at minimum, the size of a jazz club stage; pop in a Bluray of Queen at a stadium, and you'd need to own the stadium. With headphones, imagine that precise imaging on the stage has to be around the size of those music/beat-activated toy bands, but you can pinpoint the location of the instruments without actual visuals.
 
2. Preamp - this is basically just a proper volume control, in fact passive preamps just have the potentiometer in an enclosure with no power supply or much in the circuit to influence the sound. You only need this if you are using a separate power amp with speakers, or active speakers with only gain controls, and as with professional monitors, the gain knobs are on the back of each speaker, so it also makes things more convenient. If you're using headphones, you can skip this.
 
However, IF you plan on having speakers with headphones, particularly active monitors, get a device that has all DAC, amp, and preamp (in some devices the headphone amp potentiometer is also wired to the line level outputs as a passive preamp) in one box; or if you get a separate DAC and amp, make sure one of them has a preamp function. As for what DAC, amp, headphone and active speakers (or passive speakers+amp) go together, go through the tons of threads asking for suggestions. Start with your music genre in the headphones forum, then go to the amp and source forums to see what goes with them, then go the speakers, accessories, etc forums to see what goes with these.
 
If you plan on using passive speakers and an amp, keep in mind that cheap, dedicated power amps might be expensive, but manufacturing volume keeps small-ish integrated amps more affordable (unless you can build a power amp off a kit, or know someone who can). Since these already have a preamp, and within easy reach too, you might not need a preamp in the DAC or headphone amp - just get a DAC with multiple fixed outputs (kind of rare, usually one is a 2-pin RCA and the other will be 3-pin balanced XLRs) or a headphone amp with a loop output.
 
Apr 10, 2013 at 10:48 PM Post #9 of 11
tl;dr put more money into headphones and amp.
 
on board motherboard sound is decent and won't hold you back.
 
Apr 10, 2013 at 10:56 PM Post #10 of 11
I noticed you have a jvc has500 and ath ad700. now i give you a different suggestion.
 
Don't buy an amp or a dac for that headphone because it doesn't need it. just enjoy your headphones straight out of your ipod or phone or computer.
 
when people talk about amps and dacs they are talking about higher end headphone set ups.
 
I made the mistake of buying an amp and dac (the fiio e10) for my ATH-M50 and it was a waste of money.
 
If you want a real upgrade, just save up and get the sennheiser HD 600/650, or hifiman HE 400/500, Beyerdynamic 880, AKG 702, ATH AD900 and some other brands that i didn't mention.
 
Apr 18, 2013 at 1:31 PM Post #11 of 11
Audiojun has a point to some extent. A DAC/amp setup will cost at least as much as your headphones, and a good one will easily cost twice that. Both your headphones are 32 ohm, which is fairly easy to drive-so you don't really need an amp. I personally keep my rig priced out to approximately 1/3 dac/amp and 2/3 headphones. However, getting a nice DAC+amp would leave your upgrade path wide open. If you decide to, you really just need either an integrated DAC/amp or seperate devices, and cables. Some people think that $5 Monoprice cables are plenty, some people think that $5,000 solid gold cables are needed, and almost everyone is somewhere in between. I'd personally look for a $200-$300 budget for your first setup.
 

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