[Don Quichotte]

Hi!

I've done a lot of research on head-fi about the gear I am about to buy (external Dac + headphones) and, with the help of some nice guys here, I narrowed it down to Stax 3030 system (which I've heard, but with a warm source) + one of the following: Apogee Mini-Dac, Benchmark and Aqvox. Now, Aqvox seems promising, but it's said to have a somewhat Sennheiser-like tonal balance, something I don't want for my Mackie HR824 monitors, so the main contenders are the Dac 1 and the Mini-Dac.

So, long story short, Apogee or Benchmark for the Staxes (assuming both are OK for the Mackies...)? I would very much appreciate some going into detail here (pros and cons for each choice, if I'm not asking too much). It's much easier for me to buy a Benchmark than an Apogee and I hope to be able to listen to this combination (Benchmark + Stax) before actually buying, but I can not listen to the Apogee. From the sound descriptions I read it seems that the Apogee might be a better match tonally, is this true? Can I tweak a bit the Benchmark + Stax tonal response with a somewhat darker / fuller sounding interconnect?

For those of you patient enough to read on, some more details on my listening preferences could help you give me a better "tuned" advice:
- I listen especially to jazz and classical, but also other genres.
- I like an open, airy and neutral or slightly dry sound (but not overly bright in the treble - could have neutral or SLIGHTLY elevated or recessed treble) with good dynamics. A richer palette of dynamic nuances equals a more expressive music reproduction for me. I'm basicly describing the K501 midrange, I know...
- The correct, uncoloured but colorful - if you know what I mean - reproduction of the acoustic instruments is extremely important for me. The different timbres should be just as, well, different as in reality. The separation of the instruments (timbrally as well as in the soundstage) should be very easy for the ear. From these points of view I expect to get an even better sound than from my current K501.
- I'm in the "There's no such thing as too much detail" camp.
- I cannot stand: closed-in midrange, compressed sound, compressed soundstage, obvious colorations (especially muddy sound, overly sweet or overly warm - as Sennheiser HD600 seem to my ears) and proeminent peaks or dips (shouty upper mids, for example)
- I'm willing to sacrifice a bit in the following areas: bass punch; ultra-low bass extension (below, say, 30-35 Hz); warmth; the treble can be A BIT recessed (but remaining very extended, this is a must).

Thanks a lot for your help!

 

[Salt Peanuts]

Finding a Mini-DAC at a good price, or just even in stock, can be bit of a chore. If you do decide to go with a Mini-DAC, give www.sonicsense.com a call.

 

[Don Quichotte]

Thank you, Salt Peanuts, I will certainly keep this in mind.

Other inputs? Anybody familiar with at least one of these two setups?

 

[MichaelFranks]

alot going on in your post, I can offer a small bit of insight here and there

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte Hi! I've done a lot of research on head-fi about the gear I am about to buy (external Dac + headphones) and, with the help of some nice guys here, I narrowed it down to Stax 3030 system (which I've heard, but with a warm source) + one of the following: Apogee Mini-Dac, Benchmark and Aqvox. Now, Aqvox seems promising, but it's said to have a somewhat Sennheiser-like tonal balance, something I don't want for my Mackie HR824 monitors, so the main contenders are the Dac 1 and the Mini-Dac.

so you are looking for a standalone DAC for your stax rig and to drive the mackies with balanced output?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte So, long story short, Apogee or Benchmark for the Staxes (assuming both are OK for the Mackies...)?

both sounded very good with the mackie 624's, personally though I felt the midrange of the speakers too dull for enjoyable everyday "musical" listening but this was not the fault of either DAC. the bottom end was excellent, highs as high as you want (-2, 0, +2 db high rolloff).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte I would very much appreciate some going into detail here (pros and cons for each choice, if I'm not asking too much). It's much easier for me to buy a Benchmark than an Apogee and I hope to be able to listen to this combination (Benchmark + Stax) before actually buying, but I can not listen to the Apogee. From the sound descriptions I read it seems that the Apogee might be a better match tonally, is this true? Can I tweak a bit the Benchmark + Stax tonal response with a somewhat darker / fuller sounding interconnect?

I believe sweetwater stocks both units and offers a 30 day money back guarantee, you could potentially buy both and demo them, then return the one you like the least. The apogee is alot weightier and heavy/full sounding, and I prefer it's headphone out with more headphones than the benchmark, which is only tolerable with dark cans. The frequency response of the apogee is alot smoother and flatter (doing a sweep from 20 on up). The benchmark allegedly suffers from a lack of mid-bass but I didn't notice this as much as others. I liked the benchmark more as a preamp and standalone DAC. You have balanced on both, only an 1/8" out on the apogee otherwise, and the apogee doesn't offer a neutral standalone non-volume controlled DAC mode, another reason why I prefer the benchmark as a standalone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte For those of you patient enough to read on, some more details on my listening preferences could help you give me a better "tuned" advice: - I listen especially to jazz and classical, but also other genres. - I like an open, airy and neutral or slightly dry sound (but not overly bright in the treble - could have neutral or SLIGHTLY elevated or recessed treble) with good dynamics. A richer palette of dynamic nuances equals a more expressive music reproduction for me. I'm basicly describing the K501 midrange, I know... - The correct, uncoloured but colorful - if you know what I mean - reproduction of the acoustic instruments is extremely important for me. The different timbres should be just as, well, different as in reality. The separation of the instruments (timbrally as well as in the soundstage) should be very easy for the ear. From these points of view I expect to get an even better sound than from my current K501. - I'm in the "There's no such thing as too much detail" camp. - I cannot stand: closed-in midrange, compressed sound, compressed soundstage, obvious colorations (especially muddy sound, overly sweet or overly warm - as Sennheiser HD600 seem to my ears) and proeminent peaks or dips (shouty upper mids, for example) - I'm willing to sacrifice a bit in the following areas: bass punch; ultra-low bass extension (below, say, 30-35 Hz); warmth; the treble can be A BIT recessed (but remaining very extended, this is a must). Thanks a lot for your help!

Bottom line I would pick the apogee for strictly headphone or computer based listening, and the benchmark as a standalone dac or preamp. I considered the highs of the apogee to be less fatiguing, but other listeners thought the mids of the apogee were more fatiguing.

Only other thing I would add here is that the mackies are pretty much lifeless in the midrange (compared to the triangle titus/rotel power amp combo) to my ears, and I haven't heard the stax equipment so I am really not much help. oh well at least I tried

edit: oops you are in romania, nix that sweetwater comment....

 

[Don Quichotte]

Thank you, MichaelFranks! Your post is really helpful, although I must admit I would have prefered to be told that Benchmark is my best bet.

When you say that "The apogee is alot weightier and heavy/full sounding" I suppose you are talking about the sound of the dac itself, via XLR or 1/8", and not about the sound of it's headphone amp, isn't it so?

I don't quite understand if you'd still prefer the Benchmark as a standalone dac for direct balanced connection to powered monitors (as for this application I will use it with its own pot anyway). Also, did I get it wrong or the 1/8" output is fixed? I remember reading several posts saying that the 1/8" output is not worse sounding in itself, it's just the problem of having to add a 1/8" -> RCA adapter.

Buying from US is not totally impossible, but I would still have to pay some taxes when the gear enters Romania (I don't know exactly how much, but probably the total price would be more or less similar to the EU prices). However, buying both and returning the less satisfying one, ideal as it may be, is out of question.

 

[MichaelFranks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte Thank you, MichaelFranks! Your post is really helpful, although I must admit I would have prefered to be told that Benchmark is my best bet. When you say that "The apogee is alot weightier and heavy/full sounding" I suppose you are talking about the sound of the dac itself, via XLR or 1/8", and not about the sound of it's headphone amp, isn't it so?

Actually both were alot weightier and fuller, I distinctly remember hearing it with both setups. Keep in mind all of my comments about the midrange and fatigue were at the end of the last post were formulated with the mackies which were newer to me at the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte I don't quite understand if you'd still prefer the Benchmark as a standalone dac for direct balanced connection to powered monitors (as for this application I will use it with its own pot anyway). Also, did I get it wrong or the 1/8" output is fixed? I remember reading several posts saying that the 1/8" output is not worse sounding in itself, it's just the problem of having to add a 1/8" -> RCA adapter.

Tough call, again it really depends on your sonic preferences, and to be honest the two sound very similar for the most part.

1/8" output is not fixed, it doubles as a second headphone out if need be! The real reason I think the benchmark makes more sense as a standalone is the combination of having xlr and rca outs, and the fact that the 1/8" out was ONLY volume controlled (someone correct me here if I missed something). Additionally, I noticed a small popping sound when streaming stuff to the apogee from my airport express, all other transports i sampled were fine... The benchmark is literally a standalone digital preamp in the most traditional sense of the application.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Quichotte Buying from US is not totally impossible, but I would still have to pay some taxes when the gear enters Romania (I don't know exactly how much, but probably the total price would be more or less similar to the EU prices). However, buying both and returning the less satisfying one, ideal as it may be, is out of question.

yeah it would be tough for you to take advantage of the 30 day return window, and you would take an additional hit on the tax thing.

All in all I really don't think you can make a bad decision here, you just need to ask yourself what you will primarily be using it for and if you want a weightier or airier sound. Do you listen alot straight out of the computer? The USB functionality is a big bonus, and they will eventually offer a firewire upgrade kit that allows for even higher resolution/more channels. The minidac is about 3 pounds lighter due partially to the external non-toroidal transformer, has more "pro" features... you can haggle down on the price of the apogee, but benchmark has proclaimed that noone can sell their product for less than their set 975 price (search hard for a vendor who is willing to forego this silly "price fix"). Basically you end up paying about the same for either, and you get usb and more with the apogee, but no rca outputs or "standalone dac mode"

Sorry, it is just a hard decision, but again I highly doubt you would be unhappy with either.

 

[the terabyte]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelFranks I liked the benchmark more as a preamp and standalone DAC. You have balanced on both, only an 1/8" out on the apogee otherwise, and the apogee doesn't offer a neutral standalone non-volume controlled DAC mode, another reason why I prefer the benchmark as a standalone.

Assuming I understand what you mean by "neutral standalone...," all outputs (other than the headphone) on the Apogee can actually be either run through the pot or fixed in a calibrated configuration just as with the Benchmark. You just have to pop it open and shuffle around a few jumpers.

 

[MichaelFranks]

thanks for the clarification, I was using it as a preamp and headphone amp so I hadn't searched to hard for that functionality

 

[MichaelFranks]

double post, +1

 

[Don Quichotte]

Quote:

Tough call, again it really depends on your sonic preferences, and to be honest the two sound very similar for the most part.

I suppose you are talking about the balanced and unbalanced outs of the Mini, I understand that the Benchmark and the Apogee sound pretty different.

Yeah, generally speaking I'd rather go for an airier instead of a weightier sound. Problem is the Stax phones are themselves very airy and apparently the frequency response of both the Stax and the Benchmark has some pits / dips in about the same regions. More specifically, both are somewhat bright and recessed in the upper bass region (some say midbass or low midrange). This is why I'm very interested in the idea of Benchmark + Stax 3030 + dark / full sounding (but detailed) interconnect, but I'd very much like to hear from others this has been tried and it works fine. Even if I get to hear this combination in the end, I have good chances of not having the right interconnects - I will probably be able to try Audioquest, Van der Hul and maybe a (too expensive for me) Siltech.