[nprathap]

Anyone tried the Pro-Ject DAC Box RS my search for a stand alone DAC made me stumble at this one.  Its a Hybrid DAC with solid state as well as tube option with switch.  Any thoughts?  Basically the plan is: Mac Book / Pioneer BDP-88FD --> Pro-Ject DAC Box RS ---> CORDA CLASSIC-ff --> HD 800 S    Mac Book / Pioneer BDP-88FD --> Pro-Ject DAC Box RS --->Decware MK III Taboo - LCD-2 (Fazor) 

Or should I think of BMC Pure DAC MK2? I am not a fan of DAC + amp... 

 

[PinkyPowers]

Everything you're describing is a DAC plus Amp.

 

[nprathap]

Everything you're describing is a DAC plus Amp.

For the Pro-Ject DAC Box RS http://http://www.box-designs.com/main.php?prod=dacboxrs&cat=source&lang=en here are the specs and it is a standalone DAC. 

 

[PinkyPowers]

Your post is a nightmare to try and make sense of.

You listed two different amps:
Decware MK III Taboo
CORDA CLASSIC-ff

Do you own these amps? Why is there a different headphone after each amp? What does it mean? What do you want?

It seems to me there is already an amazing DAC inside the Pioneer BDP-88FD. Do you not like this? Why is it in the chain?

 

[nprathap]

Your post is a nightmare to try and make sense of.

You listed two different amps:
Decware MK III Taboo
CORDA CLASSIC-ff

Do you own these amps? Why is there a different headphone after each amp? What does it mean? What do you want?

It seems to me there is already an amazing DAC inside the Pioneer BDP-88FD. Do you not like this? Why is it in the chain?

The Tube AMP Decware MK III Taboo is made for PLANAR headphone like LCD-2 and the output from the amp is higher than the recommended values for HD 800 which can break the head phone drivers. 

CORDA CLASSIC-ff - is a Solid state AMP specifically for HD 800. 

What I am looking for is a Stand Alone DAC - and looking for recommendations. 



 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nprathap /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Anyone tried the Pro-Ject DAC Box RS my search for a stand alone DAC made me stumble at this one.  Its a Hybrid DAC with solid state as well as tube option with switch.  Any thoughts?  

 

Basically the plan is:

Mac Book / Pioneer BDP-88FD --> Pro-Ject DAC Box RS ---> CORDA CLASSIC-ff --> HD 800 S   

Mac Book / Pioneer BDP-88FD --> Pro-Ject DAC Box RS --->Decware MK III Taboo - LCD-2 (Fazor) 

Or should I think of BMC Pure DAC MK2? I am not a fan of DAC + amp... 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by nprathap /img/forum/go_quote.gif

The Tube AMP Decware MK III Taboo is made for PLANAR headphone like LCD-2 and the output from the amp is higher than the recommended values for HD 800 which can break the head phone drivers. 

CORDA CLASSIC-ff - is a Solid state AMP specifically for HD 800. 

What I am looking for is a Stand Alone DAC - and looking for recommendations. 

 

 

First off, even if it was made with planar headphones in mind, planars typically have low impedance. That means that if you made an amp with these in mind the output at high impedance - in this case, 300ohms for the HD800 - will be proportionately lower. It's the same thing with the Corda Classic, which outputs well over 1watt at 32ohms, but delivers considerably less than that at 300ohms, but it isn't a problem either way because 300ohm headphones typically have higher sensitivity anyway, which means they need less power to play as loud. The impedance being too high is only really a problem if your amp can't produce enough voltage, hence too low clean output at high impedance loads.

 

Second, the Decware Taboo is actually made more for voltage delivery at high impedance. That means it makes more power at high impedance specifically because it was meant to perform at its best with high impedance headphones like the HD800. Not that you need 1.7watts, but that's where the amp was optimized for. In fact, output transformerless amplifiers have maximum output levels at 300ohms, and these are used for high impedance headphones (just look at the power output chart for the Taboo in the link below, as well as Schiit's data for the Valhalla 2), but mostly because they have issues driving low impedance headphones (although Schiit claims the Valhalla 2 isn't as handicapped as others). At the same time, make sure the Taboo has no issues driving lower impedance loads, even if planars tend to have stable nominal impedance vs the variances in impedance depending on the frequency as with dynamic drivers.

 

Third, you can't just "blow" the drivers just because your amp produces a lot of power. As unnecessary as very high output levels is, it's not like you're actually pushing all of it into the heaphone at normal listening levels. You'd have damaged your eardrums long before you reach that point.

 

More reading here: http://headmania.org/2014/01/24/decware-taboo-mk-iii-review/

 

[nprathap]

 

 

 

First off, even if it was made with planar headphones in mind, planars typically have low impedance. That means that if you made an amp with these in mind the output at high impedance - in this case, 300ohms for the HD800 - will be proportionately lower. It's the same thing with the Corda Classic, which outputs well over 1watt at 32ohms, but delivers considerably less than that at 300ohms, but it isn't a problem either way because 300ohm headphones typically have higher sensitivity anyway, which means they need less power to play as loud. The impedance being too high is only really a problem if your amp can't produce enough voltage, hence too low clean output at high impedance loads.

 

Second, the Decware Taboo is actually made more for voltage delivery at high impedance. That means it makes more power at high impedance specifically because it was meant to perform at its best with high impedance headphones like the HD800. Not that you need 1.7watts, but that's where the amp was optimized for. In fact, output transformerless amplifiers have maximum output levels at 300ohms, and these are used for high impedance headphones (just look at the power output chart for the Taboo in the link below, as well as Schiit's data for the Valhalla 2), but mostly because they have issues driving low impedance headphones (although Schiit claims the Valhalla 2 isn't as handicapped as others). At the same time, make sure the Taboo has no issues driving lower impedance loads, even if planars tend to have stable nominal impedance vs the variances in impedance depending on the frequency as with dynamic drivers.

 

Third, you can't just "blow" the drivers just because your amp produces a lot of power. As unnecessary as very high output levels is, it's not like you're actually pushing all of it into the heaphone at normal listening levels. You'd have damaged your eardrums long before you reach that point.

 

More reading here: http://headmania.org/2014/01/24/decware-taboo-mk-iii-review/

Amazing and thank you! 
 
I did some research  earlier and the reason which raised me ask the question is 

300 ohms

1700 mw

Where the Sennhiser reccomendations shows : max. 500 mW as per EN 60-268-7 [Long-term input power] 
 
Where as : CORDA CLASSIC -FF
 
Output impedance < 0,1 ohm
Maximum output 15V / 500 mA.
Discrete volume control. Typical stepsize 0.5 dB, 63 steps.
Gain switch. Maximum gain factors -2 / +14 dB
 
Which is why I was thinking if the Amp power out would be an over kill. 
 
I am also wondering for a better stand alone dad as well. 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nprathap /img/forum/go_quote.gif

Amazing and thank you! 
 

I did some research  earlier and the reason which raised me ask the question is 

300 ohms

1700 mw

Where the Sennhiser reccomendations shows : max. 500 mW as per EN 60-268-7 [Long-term input power] 
 

Where as : CORDA CLASSIC -FF
 

Output impedance < 0,1 ohm

Maximum output 15V / 500 mA.

Discrete volume control. Typical stepsize 0.5 dB, 63 steps.

Gain switch. Maximum gain factors -2 / +14 dB

 

Which is why I was thinking if the Amp power out would be an over kill. 

 

I am also wondering for a better stand alone dad as well. 

 

 

OK, I'll reiterate.

 

On the amp end, the impedance range where an amp delivers the most power is the impedance range that its circuit is designed for. One caveat however is that this is a lot more important for an tube amp delivering power at high impedance through high voltage than for a solid state amp with a lot of current delivery because for example in the case of an output transformer-less design often means it cannot perform well driving a low impedance load, especially if such load has lower sensitivity (and hence efficiency) and worse if its impedance swings far off the nominal rating (in some driver designs the impedance changes depending on what frequency is playing; in speakers, sometimes a bad passive crossover design can make this worse).

 

Now, on the headphone end, you can never really use the full power of any proper amplifier with any reasonably sensitive headphone. Unless your amplifier has ridiculously low gain, like some desktop amps that can be used with IEMs, then as long as it has reasonable power outputs you'd start tearing your eardrums before you can set the volume level to a point where you're using all 1700mW. Also, that might necessarily be 1700mW per channel, but 850mW x 2channels. What would matter more with most headphones would be whether the amp is nowhere near audible distortion levels at your preferred listening levels, and more powerful, more expensive amps are only really preferred because the distortion levels and the noise floor are beyond audibility. That said, you don't need to blow thousands of dollars on an amplifier with very low noise and distortion (although the latter will depend on what headphone you're trying to drive with it, but of course don't use an amp designed for dynamic drivers on electrostats unless it's a speaker amp).

 

Now, back to the amp choice. If you plan on having both the LCD-2 and HD800, or practically any number of other headphones, the Classic would be safer. Its lower output at high impedance isn't going to be a problem because, barring how some amps or cheap amp chips (like what's on a smartphone), any decent amp will produce enough power at 300ohms, but some tube designs if they're designed to deliver more voltage at higher impedance can run into more issues driving low impedance headphones, like higher THD, very low power, lack of current, and even too high output impedance relative to the impedance load on it.

 

For the DAC...well, instead of buying the Taboo, and you're looking into the Classic anyway, then why not get the DACcord to go with it? Best bit about the Meiers is that the preamplifier output is on the DACcord, so if you ever hook up a speaker power amp or powered monitors to this, no need to power up the amplifier and have to unplug the headphone just so it sends the signal out the back.

 

[nprathap]

Thank you ProtegeManiac .  I already own the Taboo and I am using it with my LCD-2.  I will be using classic with my HD 800 S and HD 600. For the DAC right now I have the Pioneer BDP-88FD.  I had my headphone setup close to my bed so I can't use the BDP, and right now I am using Schiit modi2.  But the DAC makes a lot of difference on how the music is processed from Digital to Analog and I can find the difference clearly when i use my BDP as the source. 

So wondering what would be the best combination.
 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nprathap /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I already own the Taboo and I am using it with my LCD-2.  I will be using classic with my HD 800 S and HD 600. For the DAC right now I have the Pioneer BDP-88FD.  I had my headphone setup close to my bed so I can't use the BDP, and right now I am using Schiit modi2. But the DAC makes a lot of difference on how the music is processed from Digital to Analog and I can find the difference clearly when i use my BDP as the source. 

So wondering what would be the best combination.

 

OK, see, this is why PinkyPowers was asking for a clarification - what exactly you planned on getting, what do you already have, etc, which normally would just be about the DAC but your first post had two amps in it. 

 

In any case, did you even try the HD800 and HD600 with the Taboo? Here's something you can try. Listen to the Sennheisers driven by the Taboo at a comfortable listening level vs the LCD-2 on the Taboo (if you feel like blowing money, get the Clasic anyway, and then try all the headphones youhave on both amps).

 

Then, as for how they aren't just going to get blown to bits, as long as you can get some ventilation on the amps, leave it running for 12 hours. Come back to it, put one of the headphones on, and then twist the knob to deliver all the power that it can. After your eardrums are permanently damaged, ask someone else to listen to the headphones to confirm that your eardrums were torn apart before the headphones burn out 

 

As for the PureDAC, I wouldn't really blow more money on the DAC than the amplifier, given DACs/CDPs tend do tend to get better the more you spend but the problem is by how much the price to performance ratio tapers off the higher you go. Apart from that, you can't really go wrong on practically any DAC.

 

[nprathap]

 

Then, as for how they aren't just going to get blown to bits, as long as you can get some ventilation on the amps, leave it running for 12 hours. Come back to it, put one of the headphones on, and then twist the knob to deliver all the power that it can. After your eardrums are permanently damaged, ask someone else to listen to the headphones to confirm that your eardrums were torn apart before the headphones burn out 

 

I really don't want to be deaf  I have ordered classic as it had great reviews and I would like to try it and see how it goes. But i tried the HD 800 with Taboo it is good. My worry was around the output power.  
 
I went by the Integrated amp logic on not driving the speakers which should be driven by amps which are like 100 W if i drive them more than that or drive them with lesser wattage source AMP I can spoil them too.  That logic is what I applied and resulted in this question. 
 
For the DAC I am looking for a standalone and a good one which I can trust and use for ever SO was looking at the Pro-Ject DAC RS. 

 

[nprathap]

When I checked with Steve from Decware he suggested there are people using it on HD 800's as well but the AMP is built mainly for LCD-2.  

http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm
 
I still don't have my classic but I can return it and get a DAC for that price. 
 

 

[ProtegeManiac]

 

  I really don't want to be deaf  I have ordered classic as it had great reviews and I would like to try it and see how it goes. But i tried the HD 800 with Taboo it is good. My worry was around the output power.  

 

My point, again, was that you wouldn't damage it under normal use. What I said was just a way to illustrate what will actually happen with a hint of sarcasm and humor, hence the phrasing, and not a serious instruction you were intended to actually follow. Think of the amp like a car engine, and a headphone driver as a chassis with tolerances. You don't drive at full throttle all the time, do you? Because if you did even at a race track you have to hit the brakes. Over the long term driving a car hard at the track will stress the chassis, which is why they need to be reconditioned every few thousand kilometers, but for a street car, just following the law (even autobahn speed limits) and the proper maintenance schedule (rust, oil change, etc) will ensure that the chassis will stay in one piece and so will the engine. Let's say you buy a Porsche - the chassis is designed to withstand hard driving, so basically, driving it within speed limits means you never even get to brake hard, much less go around a corner pulling more Gs than the car can safely handle much less stress the chassis. Take improper and unsafe use like collisions and pot holes, and you have more to worry about from rust due to water possibly getting stuck in a tiny spot than from stressing the chassis by driving it like a sports car was meant to be driven every weekend.

 

With headphones, the mere fact that you don't want to become deaf - or at least the pain that comes when you are listening at levels that will make you deaf quickly - will be just like how traffic laws limit the kind of crap you can do with a car regardless of what engine it has. I'd be more worried about regular maintenance, like if you use a box, you wear it, sweat on it, then put it in the box - where it stays dust-free but grows nasty stuff like mold and fungus because you stash away a headphone with padding moist from any amount of sweat into a dark non-ventilated container. What can damage headphones is more along the lines of insufficient clean power, and as long as you know what that sounds like, you can avoid it, like clipping. Play it too loud and much worse if you EQ with bass boost (or play a bass test), and whether you have a lot of power or not, you will get overexcursion as the dynamic driver's suspension hits its physical limits in literally pumping bass.

 

Now if that purchase comes with curiosity about what the Classic sounds like, and you're more than willing to spend, then go for it, but make sure you at least listen to both amps with all headphones you have, and note down any observations. Chances are you won't even hit audible distortion. If anything, not only will the Classic be a safer choice in terms of not having issues with low impedance cans (not that you have low impedance dynamic drivers anyway), but it will have a very quiet background. If it's considerably more quiet than the Taboo with no music playing, then it will likely seem to have a more dynamic sound (the reality here is that you just took more noise, if any, out of what you are hearing). If you prefer its sound more so if you do on all your headphones, don't worry about it blowing up the Audezee (which won't even have as big of a problem with overexcursion since it doesn't "pump" or pound in the same manner that a dynamic driver does).

 

Again this isn't an endorsement for using more power than necessary, I'm just saying you can't just damage a headphone under normal use just because an amp is rated to deliver a lot more power. Feeding an amp with the appropriate power range but then playing a bass track that will force it into overexcursion (or EQ-ing a track with excessive bass boost) is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more likely to damage a headphone. Hell, moisture is more likely to damage a headphone, beginning with stinky, moldy earpads.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by nprathap /img/forum/go_quote.gif

I went by the Integrated amp logic on not driving the speakers which should be driven by amps which are like 100 W if i drive them more than that or drive them with lesser wattage source AMP I can spoil them too.  That logic is what I applied and resulted in this question. 

 

I use a Digital Designs C4 amplifier in my car to run a full active system - DSP to 4ch amp to 2xtweeters and 2xmidwoofers, no passive crossovers - and my Vifa tweeters are hooked up to the front channels of the amplifier, rated for 75watts. I have no hearing damage and the tweeters are fine, guess why: I'm not exactly using all 75watts on the tweeters. The DSP cuts out all frequencies the tweeters weren't designed to play, which at 1watt all the way to 1,000watts are more likely to damage, and the DSP even sends out a -4dB preamp gain to the channels feeding the tweeters, which are at the lowest gain settings on the amp itself.  I'm more worried about sunlight baking the tweeters on the dash.

 

 

 

 
For the DAC I am looking for a standalone and a good one which I can trust and use for ever SO was looking at the Pro-Ject DAC RS. 

 
Like I said above, you really can't go wrong on most decent DACs, and differences are subtle enough that what you have to be concerned more about is by how much better is it proportionate to how much more you'll spend, on top of which you'd actually have to find people who have had the DACs you're looking at back to back to even tell if there actually is any perceivable difference (much less one that can be eliminated by blind testing with matched output levels), so really when picking a DAC your foremost concern should be compatibilty of inputs and outputs as you require, and then eliminate any known to have something funky about the sound output, then it all comes down to how much you'll pay.
 
 
Quote:

 
When I checked with Steve from Decware he suggested there are people using it on HD 800's as well but the AMP is built mainly for LCD-2.  

http://www.decware.com/newsite/TABOO.htm
 
I still don't have my classic but I can return it and get a DAC for that price. 

 

 

I'm not sure why an amp made to deliver more power at high impedance is built mainly for an amp at lower impedance other than that planars tend to not have as much of the same issues as dynamic drivers, but that said a lot of solid state amps designed to deliver more power at lower impedance were all tested with 300ohm headphones in mind (but again, this is also because this isn't as much of a problem barring low output, low gain amplifiers, or one with very high output impedance).

 

[nprathap]

Thank you  ProtegeManiac for the detailed write up I appreciate a lot.  And I really got the joke with the sarcasm and it put a big smile on my face.   I think lesser knowledge is not good knowledge and that made me live in the myth and you helped me break it  

Secondly I made a good friend here - who is from Manila? Great to have a discussion with you.  

As far as the DAC goes yes, the output voltage is the key which any of my AMP can take in and I will do more research and let you know how it goes.  

Classic I was curious and Meier is a gentleman and I respect his words and would like to give a try and all works well I might even sell my tubes or maybe i will keep them as they sounds so good! and as you said I will try my cans on both and compare and see how it differs or which one is better for my ears and based on it I will make the choice. 

After all life is about making the choice  

Take care and great chatting you here .... and feel free to write once in a while!