Valhalla 2 is great, nice choice. As for the DAC, it's optional but highly recommended. Most dac's are better than the ones in normal laptops or computers, even if just by a bit. I'd say get a Modi 2 in whichever flavor you want (Uber or Multibit) and you'll be happy.
Separate dac and amp units is not weird at all. If anything, they're more normal than combo units. Unless you buy a 40 dollar dac, there shouldn't be a bottleneck. It's a good idea to get a dac which is the same quality of the amp. The Modi 2 line pairs just fine with most amps. I wouldn't buy anything cheaper than a Modi 2 though.
More or less agreed ("or less" because I've heard none of the hardware being mentioned - but I agree with the concepts). Something interesting I've observed in more recent years - there are stand-alone $20-50 DACs these days, and often they're not great pieces of gear, not just in terms of sonics, but in terms of being built in a slipshod manner and supported even worse; if that's your only option I'd probably take whatever the PC or phone or whatever is providing until a quality piece of gear can be bought (and that's another big talking point: quality isn't (or at least shouldn't be) just about sonics - build quality, functionality, etc are things that should be considered if we're talking multi-hundred or multi-thousand dollar pieces of gear, imho). A lot of higher end motherboards (like you'd find in a fancy gaming PC) are starting to get a lot more serious about audio than they were even a few years ago, and frankly some of them give decent soundcards (be they internal or external) a run for their money. Note that this is as a line source, not necessarily as a headphone amplifier (an important, if overlooked, difference).
Massive thanks for this comprehensive explanation!
No problemo.
My first instinct said that it would be a bit weird to hook up a full size high quality AMP to a DAC like the Dragon Fly. What I meant is buying the DAC and AMP separately but at the same time of course. The reason is what you already explains: I feel DAC are subjective to innovations cq. changes more rapidly than an AMP.
Frankly I don't buy the marketing line that "it changes so rapidly" - like I said I've got some digital equipment from the 1980s, 90s, etc that still sounds great. Good gear doesn't stop being good gear just because something newer and shinier comes along - maybe that newer and shinier thing is "better" in some way (for example supporting 24/96 or 24/192 or whatever) but it doesn't make the good gear somehow "ungood." Make sense?
I don't honestly know much about the DragonFly so I'm not trying to defend (or denigrate) it, but I would say frankly that "size doesn't matter" in this kind of discussion - the actual DAC chips used in these components are miniscule, and the DragonFly (and other devices like it) doesn't take up as much space because it isn't bringing its own power supply (it draws power from the host PC - which may or may not be a good thing, depending on the host PC), and has very simple output options (single stereo via 1/8" TRS). A lot of desktop units offer multiple inputs, outputs, bring their own power supplies, and of course need to be housed in a big, fancy enclosure to help ensure their prices can be jacked up to the moon (okay so this last one is a bit facetious, but there *is* a trend at the higher-end of the spectrum for the casework to get very elaborate, and very expensive, and for the most part that's just paying for it to look pretty - that isn't necessarily a bad thing, I just wish mfgrs would be honest that they're gilding the device and putting it on a solid marble base with inlaid diamonds because it LOOKS pretty, not because it SOUNDS pretty).
Second reason for buying the DAC separately. Something like the Dragon Fly, I can use it on the run too (IEM + iPhone).
Makes sense.
However, for some odd reason I feel like "crap in = crap out". Not saying a Dragon Fly is ****, but I certainly wouldn't hook up a prof. AMP to the internal sound card of my MacBook. Would you? Internal DAC's are often bashed and called inferior.
"Would you?" -> sure, why not? As long as it was compatible (a lot of pro gear won't take SE inputs). I don't honestly have a problem with any gear as long as it sounds good.
There's a lot of marketing copy about there about "DACs make this massive night and day difference that's akin to going from black and white on EP VHS to 4K UHD disc with 10-bit color" but frankly the audible differences are not that massive IME. Think more like DVD vs Laserdisc. Yeah there's lots of subtleties that geeks can sit and pick apart (and like geeks debating about Kirk v Picard - it can get fierce), but "big picture" this is a fairly easy component to get right for a lot of manufacturers (just like TOS and TNG are both very watchable). I also think some of this is held-over from the days of analog, when differences between analog players/sources could (and did) vary wildly, and marketers/dealers/etc need a reason to keep selling those high mark-up hi-fi components (hey, they gotta eat too), alongside the days of anything that says "digital" on it costing a fortune due to various market forces.
I'm not saying "don't buy a quality piece of gear" but I am saying "you don't need to be losing sleep over this, and there's *lots* of quality implementations that will sound good today (and by extension tomorrow) and this isn't something that needs to be on an upgrade treadmill like buying a PC every 3 years."
As far as "this stuff is often bashed and called inferior" - remember that there's also a HUGE snob appeal component to audiophilia for some folks.
Buying an all-in-one solution seems the most ideal solution in terms of wires and portability. But again, what if you want to upgrade the DAC later? You need to trash your AMP in that case too.
It depends. Some combo units also have analog inputs which could get you around this issue (because you could hook up whatever new decoder/DAC/widget/etc that way), and if you're going from a PC there's a pretty broad flexibility in terms of format support (because that's all handled by your player software and/or drivers). What's more likely, IMO/IME, to be a problem is outgrowing the amplifier in a combo unit, as you're probably more likely to want to try out different kinds of headphones and the built-in amp may not be sufficient (or even compatible). So I'd be more worried about the combo unit having a line output than anything else. Still, valid consideration as far as upgrading the DAC side, but its not like you're picking between a bathtub or a shower stall - this is relatively easy gear to swap out.
Btw. I am quite surprised you mention Creative and Asus. I wouldn't consider it as a proper audiophile brand.
I'd say "proper audiophile [anything]" is a probably a proper strawman. What even makes something "audiophile" let alone "proper audiophile" and who decides that?
Asus and Creative both make quality hardware that measures pretty well, especially at its price point (and that's something that bears mention: I've seen debates about "internal is no good, external so much better!" and you end up comparing like a $50-100 soundcard to a $5000+ piece of gear - on what planet does that make sense? only if the expensive gear was losing would I find that kind of comparison interesting). The biggest thing to remember is that soundcards (like DACs) are generally built as input/output devices, not amplifiers, so if you're using them as a line level source (e.g. plugging into that great big amp you linked) I don't really see much to gripe about.
@ProtegeManiac makes a good point on their "headphone amp" cards generally not having the greatest specs vs desktop units, and that's something I'd agree with, especially for driving certain kinds of headphones (ignoring the obvious low-hanging fruit example of electrostatics and power-hungry planars, there's still some low sensitivity and/or high impedance dynamics out there that want more voltage or overall power than many soundcards (or built-in amps) can usually muster). There's limitations to what can be done on an add-in card or an inexpensive USB-powered device, and amplification is going to be one of the bigger places you see that. But if you're already buying that big, impressive-looking desktop amp you linked up above, this is mostly an academic discussion - you just need a quality line-level source, nothing more, nothing less, so who cares what the hypothetical device's hypothetical built-in amp can or cannot hypothetically do?
Well you can get a Modi Multibit for 250 bucks which is an amazing dac. I've heard so many good reviews of that dac but I haven't heard much at all for the Dragonfly. That alone says a lot
Not at all trying to "pour fuel on a flame" here, but I think part of the reason we may not hear so much about Dragonfly is because its a few years old now, so it isn't "new and shiny" anymore.
As long as the DAC has a clean, fixed voltage line output, as opposed to some now that has only has a headphone output, it's not a problem. Check the specs of the Dragonfly - AFAIK some models don't have that (the original Dragonfly I think, but double check).
+1.
The problem isn't really the DAC chip but how the analogue signal is handled by the rest of the circuit, and in the case of a laptop, you don't get a clean fixed voltage output.You can try setting it to 50% output or whatever but I'd rather just hook up a DAC. Imaging is improved too.
+1. Got me thinking too, there was a thread a while back asking for a "listing of DAC chips" and to save myself re-typing, I'll just link:
https://head-fi.org/threads/dac-chip-ranking-table-comparison.856216/#post-13642702
My only real criterias with a DAC is whether it has all the inputs and outputs I need and with good quality output. Used to be I wouldn't really bother with compatibility with anything over 16/44.1, but most DACs have 24/96 nowadays, and I only have one album in 24/96 and that's because it's not available in 16/44.1 FLAC.
+1.
I'll add that for content outside of music, any of these ultra-high-bitrate or sample-rate files are basically nonexistent. Most movies are 16/48, most videogames use audio that comes in somewhere around that, broadcast television is generally worse, etc. By all means, if you need 24/96 or 32/192 or whatever playback support, get hardware/software that will enable it, but I wouldn't think it reasonable to go out and spend a fortune to have hexdodecadouble-rate DSD or whatever other superlative features they're on to now - the content just isn't there (so "does it make a sonic difference" is basically a non-discussion because there's basically nothing that uses it, so how would we ever know? but while we're here:
https://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html).
The only real problems are high output impedance on the headphone output on internal cards and a few external units, which Creative is addressing on the AE5, and potential for system noise - whether electronic noise or cooling system noise in a computer (which is why I don't use my gaming rig - even its most quiet at idle still has a wind rush audible from my seat if I'm listening at night).
Higher THD+N would only really be a thing if you use the wrong headphones or compare these to something like a Meier or Violectric.
Then there's all the marketing bull - like how instead of labeling "Low / High Gain" they use some fancy but otherwise meaningless term that appeals to people who don't knnow what they're doing. Like "EXTREME PRO GAMING MODE (For >120ohm headphones) on my Xonar U3, which is pointless considering it's just gain and a 93dB sensitivity, 150hm headphone needs that high gain mode more than a 300ohm, 98dB headphone will.
+1 (I'm seeing a trend here).
On my Creative cards they actually do label it high/low gain; odd that Asus doesn't do that.
I'll also add (without meaning to get into a massive and never-ending flame-war): the whole "rule of 8" is something I'd squarely put into "marketing bull" as well. Yes Zout can interact with the measured (and audible) frequency response of reactive loads, but that doesn't characterize all headphones, nor is there an absolute "truth" to what overall system response is best (e.g. nothing is going to be broken here, it may just result in changing the sound - change is value-neutral; how we interpret it is not).
