[Maxvla]

Soundstaging is a personal judgement with regard to customs. I feel my UERMs have nearly as large a soundstage, and just as accurate as the HD800 which is famous for those aspects.

I bought customs for home listening exclusively. That should tell the OP where I stand on the matter.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

People around me change quite a lot in 5 years so I averaged them out. Yes you're right, I should have mentioned that reshells depends entirely on individual growth. 
 

I'll be joining various headfier on the custom route to audio nirvana this year so we'll see how that goes...

 

[nikp]

Quote:

Soundstaging is a personal judgement with regard to customs. I feel my UERMs have nearly as large a soundstage, and just as accurate as the HD800 which is famous for those aspects.
I bought customs for home listening exclusively. That should tell the OP where I stand on the matter.

 
Accurate as in instrument separation or as in depth and width? Because most open cans I've auditioned don't come close to the HD800 and closed cans.. not a chance. Most IEMs I used to have/tried don't even have a bigger soundstage than my cheap HTF600s. I'm not sure about most customs though: I just never heard someone with a custom that admires its soundstage.
 
 

 

[lee730]

Quote:

 
Accurate as in instrument separation or as in depth and width? Because most open cans I've auditioned don't come close to the HD800 and closed cans.. not a chance. Most IEMs I used to have/tried don't even have a bigger soundstage than my cheap HTF600s. I'm not sure about most customs though: I just never heard someone with a custom that admires its soundstage.
 
 

I've heard the Starkey SA-43 are super expansive in the sound stage and I think beat the LCD2 in that regard.
 

 

[nikp]

Quote:

I've heard the Starkey SA-43 are super expansive in the sound stage and I think beat the LCD2 in that regard.
 

 
I'm not impressed with the LCD2's soundstage at all. In fact, I tested every headphone with Holst's Jupiter and only the HD600 and HD800 played it right. In Jude's review, the HD700 sounds almost like the HD800 so I have really high hopes for them (+ my ears are sibilant-proof so it's not going to be a problem for me).  

 
 

 

[ssrock64]

Quote:

ssrock64: Not to derail my own thread but what amp for the iphone 4s & HD700?

I'm not sure if it's really practical to even consider using the HD700 as a portable. You'd need a pretty dedicated portable setup not unlike the famous AKG K1000 portable below to make it sound anywhere near its capability.
 

 
I'm exaggerating, but you'd seriously need a nice amp setup to get anything over 100 ohms to sound good from a portable source, and by that point you're not doing it justice still.

 

[extrabigmehdi]

Quote:

I'm exaggerating, but you'd seriously need a nice amp setup to get anything over 100 ohms to sound good from a portable source, and by that point you're not doing it justice still.

It seems that the hd700 are rated 150 ohms. Ok I  would forget about running them straight from an ipod.
 
 

 

[nikp]

Quote:

It seems that the hd700 are rated 150 ohms. Ok I  would forget about running them straight from an ipod.
 
 

They're not meant for portable. 

 

 

[Maxvla]

Accurate as in instrument separation or as in depth and width? Because most open cans I've auditioned don't come close to the HD800 and closed cans.. not a chance. Most IEMs I used to have/tried don't even have a bigger soundstage than my cheap HTF600s. I'm not sure about most customs though: I just never heard someone with a custom that admires its soundstage.

 

I started with the Hifiman RE262 which is well known for it's expansive soundstage. The UERM is that much and more, but with everything else refined to a greater magnitude. I've heard the HD800 on about 8 different setups now. I'm confident of my take on their soundstage.

In general it is easier for an in ear monitor (custom or universal) to create a more realistic soundstage (a 3D holographic feel) than normal headphones because of the tiny amount of air it is working with. The distance from the drivers to your eardrum is very small thus tiny details that might get lost from a headphone in the ear canal are beamed more or less straight to the ear drum. Only electrostats can produce better detail than I am experiencing with my UERM because they start out better at the driver and end up better at the ear drum despite the greater distance and chance to be reflected/absorbed. I would say orthodynamics are about equal to IEMs or slightly less. Dynamics lag quite a bit behind with the HD800 at the head of that pack for sure. Planars have problems with soundstaging though, in particular the very large diaphragm orthos from Audeze and Hifiman. Separation is not great and it does sound like the music is coming from a plane. High end sources and amps dramatically reduce this though. So in my opinion I get second rank detail (behind stats) and tied for best imaging (with dynamics) in a package that is comparatively simple to drive (vs stats and 300ohm dynamics) and still sounds quite good on just a flash DAP.

I'm currently in the process of figuring out a full size rig though as I do want to have that top detail rig for a change of pace.

 

[Maxvla]

I'm not impressed with the LCD2's soundstage at all. In fact, I tested every headphone with Holst's Jupiter and only the HD600 and HD800 played it right. In Jude's review, the HD700 sounds almost like the HD800 so I have really high hopes for them (+ my ears are sibilant-proof so it's not going to be a problem for me).  

 

LCD2 has rather poor sound stage on most setups I heard. Not something I would use to prop up a soundstage claim for sure.

 

[nikp]

Quote:

I started with the Hifiman RE262 which is well known for it's expansive soundstage. The UERM is that much and more, but with everything else refined to a greater magnitude. I've heard the HD800 on about 8 different setups now. I'm confident of my take on their soundstage.
In general it is easier for an in ear monitor (custom or universal) to create a more realistic soundstage (a 3D holographic feel) than normal headphones because of the tiny amount of air it is working with. The distance from the drivers to your eardrum is very small thus tiny details that might get lost from a headphone in the ear canal are beamed more or less straight to the ear drum. Only electrostats can produce better detail than I am experiencing with my UERM because they start out better at the driver and end up better at the ear drum despite the greater distance and chance to be reflected/absorbed. I would say orthodynamics are about equal to IEMs or slightly less. Dynamics lag quite a bit behind with the HD800 at the head of that pack for sure. Planars have problems with soundstaging though, in particular the very large diaphragm orthos from Audeze and Hifiman. Separation is not great and it does sound like the music is coming from a plane. High end sources and amps dramatically reduce this though. So in my opinion I get second rank detail (behind stats) and tied for best imaging (with dynamics) in a package that is comparatively simple to drive (vs stats and 300ohm dynamics) and still sounds quite good on just a flash DAP.
I'm currently in the process of figuring out a full size rig though as I do want to have that top detail rig for a change of pace.

 
Interesting. You might have just convinced me to get the UERM someday.
 
I don't follow the logic there: open headphones are more likely to have a bigger soundstage because well, it's open air / Closed headphones or IEMs limit that openness and I'm not sure how their soundstage could be even close.  
 
On the setups, not everyone owns $1000-2000 amps. 

 

[Maxvla]

You aren't sure because you haven't tried it. I didn't expect it when I got my first IEMs, the MEElectronics M9 which sound like crap but had this amazing 3D holographic soundstage. I quickly looked up in quality but wanting to retain that 3D feeling and got the RE262 which I used for about a year til I got these customs. I don't know how they do it while not being open, but they do.

Not sure what you mean on the setups comment. If you are putting an HD800 in your system you need good power. The minimum I would expect to sound decent would be in the $500 range. The best I heard it on was a $5000 amp, but not far behind was one around $1000-1500.

 

[nikp]

Quote:

You aren't sure because you haven't tried it. I didn't expect it when I got my first IEMs, the MEElectronics M9 which sound like crap but had this amazing 3D holographic soundstage. I quickly looked up in quality but wanting to retain that 3D feeling and got the RE262 which I used for about a year til I got these customs. I don't know how they do it while not being open, but they do.
Not sure what you mean on the setups comment. If you are putting an HD800 in your system you need good power. The minimum I would expect to sound decent would be in the $500 range. The best I heard it on was a $5000 amp, but not far behind was one around $1000-1500.

I came from IEMs (W4, TF10, UE700, SE425, IE7, etc) to headphones and almost purchased a custom myself. About the 3D feeling, multiple BA IEMs do have excellent instrument separation. I think we're confusing the term soundstage here. Yes, instrument separation in IEMs can be close to high end headphones.
 
My desktop amp has more than enough power for the HD600, 800 even the DT880 600 Ohm but may lacks warmth which the DT880 needs. 
 

 

[Maxvla]

Soundstage to me is literally a stage where the sounds are placed. Separation to me is how clearly those instruments are defined in their own space separated from each other. Think of it like a fuzzy picture that slowly comes into focus. The more in focus you are the better the separation is, but the sound stage itself is entirely unchanged. The sounds still come from the same place, they are simply more defined.

By the way, I don't recall any of those IEMs you mentioned being listed with exceptional soundstaging. There are some universals that do, though.

 

[lee730]

Quote:

Soundstage to me is literally a stage where the sounds are placed. Separation to me is how clearly those instruments are defined in their own space separated from each other. Think of it like a fuzzy picture that slowly comes into focus. The more in focus you are the better the separation is, but the sound stage itself is entirely unchanged. The sounds still come from the same place, they are simply more defined.
By the way, I don't recall any of those IEMs you mentioned being listed with exceptional soundstaging. There are some universals that do, though.

That doesn't make sense entirely because the size of the sound stage can vary greatly depending on what you are listening to, the headphone/IEMs natural sound stage etc. Although the sounds should be similar in some respect; depending on how big or small the sound stage is can have a pretty noticeable effect on the sound. I'm more inclined myself to notice things on a bigger sound stage as opposed to a smaller more confined area. Depending on how small it is I would find it invading and irritating lol. Kinda like a small room packed with too many people.