[TonyD]

As in the title, I have an X-Fi sound card and Senn HD600s that I listen to constantly... about 8 hours a day. I have read in random places that headphones like this need an amp for them to achieve their full potential.

Why?

All I know is that an amp (obviously) amplifies the signal. but if that simply means taking the audio signal and making it stronger, i.e. louder, and my system already can produce bleeding-ear levels of volume, is there any point to adding an amp to this setup? (Between my X-Fi sound card and the HD600s is a set of Creative Inspire T5400 speakers that lists "Audio Amplifier: Integrated" in the specs. I actually only thought of looking this up while writing this!) Am I right that amps only increase the output, and do not alter the sound in any other way?

Okay so I love the sound from this setup, I guess I already have an amp!

Definitely open to suggestions on how to improve this setup!

 

[csickman]

Hi Tony,

This is my first post here but i've been into headphones and audio for a while. My $0.02 worth of thought:

Just like you, I used to have the same "classic" perpective towards audio. I would get the best damn headphone possible and then I'll bother about whether I need an amplifer or a better DAC. Most magazine/expert even recommend that select your speakers/headphone first when you build an audio system. But occasionally, a handful of gurus would recommend that you start at the source first ("Garbage in, garbage out" is their favorite expression) while others would recommend that you start with your amplifier - don't these "only increase the volume", I used to tell myself. But after playing with different setups, I now lean more towards the "amplifier first" rule.

To cut a long story short, I have realised that every component is important audio, although I do believe that the amplifier is slighlty more important that anything else. My interpretation of amplification is that although the amplifier just increase the volume, doing that job is not easy. You see, sound consists of many frequencies and amplifying all of them equally is one though job; that's why getting a better amplifer can produce a more defined bass or make the sound quality clearer. Secondly most speakers/headphones have different resistance(impedence) at different frequencies. This is where a more powerful amplfier can help. (But then again, the more powerful, the more complex it is to design and build)

I've never tried the HD600 with the T5400 speaker as amplifier, but I know that the HD600 is notoriously hard to drive. i.e to get the full potential of your Senn, which you paid a lot of money, you'll need a good headphone amp. The general rule is that you should get an amp that cost as much as your HD600. (if i were you, i'll budget more $ than for the HD600). Do some research on amplfiers, there so many kinds: solid state, digital (class D or T) and tube amplifiers. I won't suggest any amplifer at the moment because that will depend on the type of sound that you like. For instance, tube amplifiers can make sound more musical at the expense of bass.

If you want to see a difference, try comparing your HD600 by listening the same CD through a home theater amplifer and your T5400. You should see a signifcant improvement. A dedicated headphone amplifer will improve the sound quality even more.

 

[TonyD]

Thank you for your thoughts, that makes a lot of sense. I will try my senns with my friends' big home theatre receiver when i get the chance.

 

[tintin47]

To add on to csickman's comments, think of it as simple physics. F=ma Your sound card produces enough voltage to drive the 600 to adequate levels for listening, but that does not mean that it drives them adequately. Phone drivers have mass, and therefore they can only accelerate as fast as the force being applied to them dictates. An amplifier gives your headphone drivers a lot of extra power which the phones use to create better dynamics, higher levels of detail and the such. A very noticeable improvement going from unamped to amped is better bass, because all of a sudden, you have enough power to move the driver where it needs to be, stop it and reverse direction very quickly, tightening everything up. It goes much deeper than that, but that is one of the main ideas behind amping.

 

[TonyD]

Interesting... so you are basically saying that an amp will be able to more tightly control the movement of the driver... when comparing sound through an amp and sound straight from the card... even at equal volume, right?

 

[Juaquin]

If you have more voltage available, and are able to move the voltage back and forth faster (like a good amp does), you can control the drivers more precisely.

This is a bad analogy but I think it gives a basic idea. You have two engines - one with 150hp and drum brakes, the other with 500hp and ceramic breaks. Both will get you to 15mph (equal volume) easily, but the 500hp one will do it faster. Then if you want to suddenly accelerate to 60mph, the 500hp one will get there much quicker - it is able to change speed with very little effort (being able to move the driver faster). Then if you want to go to 0mph, the ceramic breaks are going to get you there quicker and with more precision than the drum breaks (reversing the speaker driver's direction).

 

[TonyD]

Makes sense! Will have to see about getting a good amp.

 

[tizer2000uk]

If your using an X-FI card I can say that from experience you would be better off using the digital output into a better dac (Beresford or Cambridge) and then getting a headphone amp, I have the Beresford and use its built in headphone amp which is a big improvement over the analog output of the X-FI including the LM4562 mod.

I should also mention you would get better sound again by using a CD transport rather than playing lossless files from the pc, the difference is night and day, far more detail, seperation and enjoyment!

 

[TonyD]

Thanks for your input. I'm sorry, I know next to nothing about these things, so I need to ask what a DAC is - digital-analogue-converter perhaps? Can you recommend/link specific products you're mentioning for me to look over later? (about to go away for a good 8 days for a work-a-thon from hell)
Where do speakers come into this? What would be the ideal setup that would give great output to my senns and maybe later down the road to my speakers (which at the moment aren't the best quality i would think)

playing a CD directly on the PC is better than lossless files? but they're supposed to be 'lossless'

i guess the first encoding from CD to the lossless format could loose some quality??

 

[rain_uk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizer2000uk /img/forum/go_quote.gif If your using an X-FI card I can say that from experience you would be better off using the digital output into a better dac (Beresford or Cambridge) and then getting a headphone amp

I second that!

 

[AudioPhewl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizer2000uk /img/forum/go_quote.gif I should also mention you would get better sound again by using a CD transport rather than playing lossless files from the pc, the difference is night and day, far more detail, seperation and enjoyment!

Utter nonsense! A bit-perfect digital signal is a bit-perfect digital signal. The DAC has absolutely no idea where it comes from. It is impossible for one to give "far more detail, seperation and enjoyment!".

Please don't pollute the minds of people asking for assistance by repeating an ill-informed opinion as fact.

~Phewl.

 

[AudioPhewl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyD /img/forum/go_quote.gif Thanks for your input. I'm sorry, I know next to nothing about these things, so I need to ask what a DAC is - digital-analogue-converter perhaps? Can you recommend/link specific products you're mentioning for me to look over later? (about to go away for a good 8 days for a work-a-thon from hell) Where do speakers come into this? What would be the ideal setup that would give great output to my senns and maybe later down the road to my speakers (which at the moment aren't the best quality i would think) playing a CD directly on the PC is better than lossless files? but they're supposed to be 'lossless' i guess the first encoding from CD to the lossless format could loose some quality??

A DAC is a Digital to Analogue Converter. It converts the input stream of digital information(commonly transferred via S/PDIF and USB - optical and coaxial are both forms of S/PDIF transfer, though are usually misrepresented by folks) into audible sounds. They can come in all manner of designs, ranging from the 1980's designs of Non-OverSampling(commonly referred to as NOS), through to modern oversampling and increased resolution techniques. There is always some debate over which design is best, and nobody can give a conclusive answer as to which 'breed' you should buy. It is a matter of personal preference and taste.

As for links, budget modern units are talked about plenty in this forum. Have a look at the threads revolving around the "Zero DAC" and "Audio-gd Compass DAC".

Both units contain a built-in headphone amplifier, which will directly feed your choice of headphones. They also have RCA audio outputs, which output the analogue signal produced by the DAC inside, to be fed into another product. If you wanted to try a dedicated headphone amplifier, you would use these to connect the amplifier to the DAC.

Likewise, if you wish to send the music to your speakers, you would connect a speaker amplifier to these outputs.

As for the CD/lossless debate, it has been done to death. Both formats contain exactly the same digital audio information. They are identical, bit-for-bit and on a repeatable basis. Provided you can output a bit-perfect digital signal from your PC, the data from the lossless file will be totally identical to the output from a CD player.

That said, there are instances where the implementation of the socket and components feeding it can adversely affect the quality of the signal.

Sit around, and read A LOT in order to come to your own conclusions. There are plenty of "well meaning" folk in life, but they don't always manage to convey accurate or correct information. Never be scared to ask questions, but be careful when taking the opinion of another as gospel.

~Phewl.

 

[apatN]

The X-FI is not bad at all and has no real problems with my Beyers. Unfortunately some X-FI cards suffer from crackling and mine did as well. Also the highs were pretty digital sounding.
The Little Dot running from the X-FI was nice but seriously not a huge leap in sound quality. In that case you are amplifying a signal that is not that great to begin with.
If you decide to get an amp make sure you get a DAC as well as the analog signal from a dedicated DAC is way better than the X-FI.

 

[synaesthetic]

Loudness does not equate to power or control. The HD600s need a dedicated headamp to sound acceptable.

 

[tizer2000uk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AudioPhewl /img/forum/go_quote.gif Utter nonsense! A bit-perfect digital signal is a bit-perfect digital signal. The DAC has absolutely no idea where it comes from. It is impossible for one to give "far more detail, seperation and enjoyment!". Please don't pollute the minds of people asking for assistance by repeating an ill-informed opinion as fact. ~Phewl.

Not utter nonsense, my DV717 playing cd's sounds better than my pc does using foobar and the kernel bypass component. Im guessing the cd player has lower jitter or whatever, it just sounds....better!