[ptaaty]

Well in regards to your last point regarding SQ...

I am coming from the "audiophile" Karma, and I am more than impressed with the Vision:M for SQ. It's just flat better. I haven't done A/B blind yet to nail the differences down, but the amp is killer.

Screen is good enough that movies are far better on it that the PSP. Don't get me wrong if you have a UMD movie the PSP is still better despite the bad refresh. For your own stuff though the VM works better, and encoding time is much faster using pocket divx. I have a cue of 3 movies and 6-8 TV shows ready for those down times

 

[bangraman]

I'm really amazed that no-one's mentioned the screen or the controls. I would have expected austonia to mention it at least... Surely it's not because I'm a hyper anal retentive professional industrial designer? Is anyone actually stacking this side by side with the competition?

 

[Kam3]

might be. he seemed pretty satisfied with both in his review at DAPReview. also known as the best ZV:M review ever.

 

[bangraman]

I wonder if that's best, as in considering the sole ZV:M user's opinion or mindful of which way his bread is buttered. No, that's deeply disingenuous... I shouldn't really say that. However I must admit I am puzzled why people aren't pointing out really fundamental ergonomic issues with the ZV:M. I guess I'll have to dig out my camera again.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Quote:

However I must admit I am puzzled why people aren't pointing out really fundamental ergonomic issues with the ZV:M.

Perhaps because they don't see any?

I would be the first to agree (and in fact did in the review above) that the iPod still has the superior UI, but I also didn't find any major flaws in the ZVM, and certainly least nothing that would eliminate it from competition. The only thing that would do that would be inferior audio or video quality.

 

[ptaaty]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman I wonder if that's best, as in considering the sole ZV:M user's opinion or mindful of which way his bread is buttered. No, that's deeply disingenuous... I shouldn't really say that. However I must admit I am puzzled why people aren't pointing out really fundamental ergonomic issues with the ZV:M. I guess I'll have to dig out my camera again.

You might have to point it out. Believe it or not, I have hardly used an iPod at all...and I never had a touch strip before. So on even terms, what did I think? Well the old wheel of the ipod is better than the new one, and compared to the ZVM, each had advantages actually.

Overall the iPod wheel system is better, but to me not a whole lot. The side functions on the strip, the context menu jump and the shortcut key all really made the VM work well for me.

Additionally the screen is much nicer on the ZVM, it is more comfortable to hold (less so in the pocket of course), the GUI is more colorful, better use of screen etc.

What are these horrible ergo issues? If someone were extremely used to an iPod I could see they could have issues but believe it or not not everyone loves the ipod controls. Having used a karma quite a bit before my first ipod experience it took a fair bit of explaining and I was suprised how much I disliked it. That said I could remove myself and notice some of the inherent advantages once you get used to it...but by no means do I feel it is the only valid control scheme

 

[austonia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bangraman I'm really amazed that no-one's mentioned the screen or the controls. I would have expected austonia to mention it at least... Surely it's not because I'm a hyper anal retentive professional industrial designer? Is anyone actually stacking this side by side with the competition?

done that

http://www.dapreview.net/e107_plugin...hp?content.259

 

[bangraman]

It's possible to get used to anything given time. It is our strength as humans: we're adaptable. But there is good design that requires little adaptation time, and bad design which always requires conscious thought to use it. I can say that for example, even from the same manufacturer the Zen Micro Photo (the menu structure works in a virtually identical way) is a lot easier to use than the ZV:M as you're not having to adjust the feel of the controls as much, and the smaller form factor also makes the controls at the edges of the player less of an issue in terms of excessive thumb movement. And while the all-touch controls aren't optimal for stand-up portable use, but once you get used to it at least the controls have the same feel throughout and as a result you don't have to think about the difference in the force to apply to the controls anywhere near as much as it's bigger brother.


And let's get onto the viewing angle. I don't see the specific issues of the ZV:M in your review, austonia. I believe you explained the technology difference, but didn't mention a key component of that difference. I say this as the ZV:M viewing angle is even a slight issue if you're only playing back music: Because the anti-aliasing of the text inverts, letters look broken up, making the decorative but thin font even less legible if you're looking at it from a non-optimum angle.


For movies and photos, the iPod exhibits vastly superior image quality from anywhere except a very narrow viewing angle limited to about a 5~10-degree arc from holding the player exactly perpendicular to the face. If you actually examine the way people hold a player and use it, it's almost never actually looking directly at it (and especially not the 95~100-degree angle that the ZV:M requires for the definitively superior image quality in comparison to the iPod) but always at an angle. Even with the player at a shallow angle, the LCD on the ZV:M is already going outside the marginal viewing angle.


This is the problem. In actual portable use, the ZV:M screen is significantly inferior to the iPod's.

 

[ptaaty]

bangraman,

It's all a matter of perspective. The ZVM doesn't have the one-handed ease of lets say a Karma.

However...what is a bigger issue? Having to press the buttons a bit harder in exchange for no accidental presses...and therby giving you access to volume with one button press...or having to navtigate all over god's green earth to get to the volume controls?

Also my text is very legible at all angles, no problems at all. Tilting the ZVM away from the viewer does lead to a dimmed image, but toward remains completely viewable with the same quality all the way to flat.

 

[ILikeMusic]

Tilting the ZVM away from the viewer does lead to a dimmed image, but toward remains completely viewable with the same quality all the way to flat.

That would be my observation as well. Other than that specific case (tilting away from the viewer by more than 45 degrees, not exactly a common viewing angle) I find the off-access viewability to be fine.


In actual portable use, the ZV:M screen is significantly inferior to the iPod's.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion I suppose. But that one sure seems to differ from not only my personal experience, but virtually every review I've read (amateur and professional alike) as well.

 

[dskywalker]

I compared the display of the same picture on both players, the one on iPod looks better with more detail (color is too subjective I won't comment), BUT i believe itunes processed the image before it was loaded onto the ipod whereas creative just dumbs the image on to the zen vision. Sorry to confuse anyone more, but I just want to point this out to anyone who's comparing the screen quality of the ipod and zen vision m.

 

[bangraman]

Pics please gentlemen of video stills from different viewing angles. I'd say a typical holding angle was twenty degrees offset from the perpendicular.


Mine will be up when I can shoot it, later today or tomorrow.

 

[Kam3]

would this be a result of the transreflective properties of the ipods screen? such that it can pick up and reflect light back to the eye from a very wide angle? because if the ZV:M has a traditional TFT LCD, which is like my H320, then yes the screen visibility dimishes as the angle is increased, but under typical viewing angles it is fine. i don't see how it comes as a fault to the ZV:M. it just so happens the ipod is extraordinary in this one aspect. whoop dee do. as long as the ZV:M's screen is still 262K the upper like my H320 i don't see the issue. unless of course the problem is severe like the Zen Vision. Is it?

 

[bangraman]

That's up to you to judge. That's why we're having piccies. I'll be happy to post same-angle shots of the H320 as well so that you can say "man that sucks"

 

[ptaaty]

They are blurry and bad pics, but from front on to tilted all the way top towards user...and side to side are about the exact same. Tilted away you can see it fades.

Not any issue with anything for what I am concerned.

*edit* notice the background pic...the ZVM does have jaggies for certain downscaling of pics, I don't know exactly what rez's yet, its not across the board though. Nothing on any vids, nothing for certain pics, but does happen for some.