Creating examples of "Loudness Wars" effect

[TheSonicTruth]

You mean "everything you need to know" to continue making incorrect statements and spamming every thread? Compressors are a fundamental music production tool and reducing and modifying peaks is a requirement of popular music production and has been since the 1960's. So, what are you saying, that all popular music genres of the last half-century should be banned? If not, then clearly you're a very long way from "everything you need to know"!!

G

How compressors were used in the 1950s - 1980s is nothing - peanuts! - compared to today. If compression practices back then could be compared to tons of TNT, today's compressor capablities, and even how much of that capability is put to use, would be 5-10MT nuclear weapons! And in the remastering field, compression is added on top of compression already backed into stereo masters from, say, the 1970s-1980s.

 

[bigshot]

Compressors back in the analogue era were much more primitive than modern digital ones. Ham handed compression with artifacts was standard for AM radio and was the bane of a lot of FM radio too. 45s were heavily compressed to sound loud and full on jukeboxes, and LPs were compressed to raise the music up out of the elevated noise floor.

Do you have a lot of singles and LPs from the 50s to the 80s? I do and you sure aren't describing my record collection. I think you might be cherry picking the best of the analogue era compared to the worst of the digital era. What you should be comparing is the best of the analogue era compared to the best of the digital era. There is absolutely no question that digital is significantly better fidelity. Take the best LP release of Sgt Pepper in the past and compare that to the recent blu-ray audio remix playing the 5.1 track. No contest. I had the hand pressed MFSL box of Dark Side of the Moon and I compared it to the SACD. The second I heard the SACD, I sold the MFSL box immediately at eBay!

 

[pinnahertz]

True, if compressors were banned tomorrow, the loudness war would rage on. You can make signals too hot without one, it's just more work...

Sorry, I can't agree with the above. You have no idea exactly what's going on in loudness processing during mastering. The game is, how loud can I make it and still sound ok? It's not just compressors, or just limiters, or clippers, it's a very complex combination of all of that, layered, stacked, spectrally split and recombined...really, really complex. Compressors play a vital role, but hardly are the only mechanism.

 

[TheSonicTruth]

Compressors back in the analogue era were much more primitive than modern digital ones. Ham handed compression with artifacts was standard for AM radio and was the bane of a lot of FM radio too. 45s were heavily compressed to sound loud and full on jukeboxes, and LPs were compressed to raise the music up out of the elevated noise floor.

Do you have a lot of singles and LPs from the 50s to the 80s? I do and you sure aren't describing my record collection. I think you might be cherry picking the best of the analogue era compared to the worst of the digital era. What you should be comparing is the best of the analogue era compared to the best of the digital era. There is absolutely no question that digital is significantly better fidelity. Take the best LP release of Sgt Pepper in the past and compare that to the recent blu-ray audio remix playing the 5.1 track. No contest. I had the hand pressed MFSL box of Dark Side of the Moon and I compared it to the SACD. The second I heard the SACD, I sold the MFSL box immediately at eBay!

The digital format is of significantly higher fidelity - NOT what is being produced and released in it. I know what digital is capable of, and what has actually happened.

So which 'digital' are you talking about? The format? Or some sausage waveform mastered digitally?

 

[TheSonicTruth]

Compressors back in the analogue era were much more primitive than modern digital ones. Ham handed compression with artifacts was standard for AM radio and was the bane of a lot of FM radio too. 45s were heavily compressed to sound loud and full on jukeboxes, and LPs were compressed to raise the music up out of the elevated noise floor.

Do you have a lot of singles and LPs from the 50s to the 80s? I do and you sure aren't describing my record collection. I think you might be cherry picking the best of the analogue era compared to the worst of the digital era. What you should be comparing is the best of the analogue era compared to the best of the digital era. There is absolutely no question that digital is significantly better fidelity. Take the best LP release of Sgt Pepper in the past and compare that to the recent blu-ray audio remix playing the 5.1 track. No contest. I had the hand pressed MFSL box of Dark Side of the Moon and I compared it to the SACD. The second I heard the SACD, I sold the MFSL box immediately at eBay!

In a lot of cases 'Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs' is overrated. With a geeky, scientific-sounding name like that they make an ordinary consumer automatically believe they are getting something closer to the true sound - of 'DSOTM', or whatever is in MFSL's catalog.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

Anyone have A+M audiophile series Crime of the Century by Supertramp......absolutely brilliant ...dynamic as hell...bass down to the basement....detail....soundstaging...tried to replace this record with a cd.Can't be done.Dire Straits first album with Sultans of swing...tried to replace it with 3 different vinyl versions and cd versions,can't be topped,sometimes they get it right the first time...digital/analog are not that far apart if done with passion and precision.

 

[Steve999]

I've got the Dire Straights LP, original release. . . by choice, LP transferred to digital, as transparent as I knew how, pops and crackles and all. Yeah, that's it for me. I know how to get rid of the pops and crackles and rumble, etc., but that LP is just it. Matter of fact I'll fire it up right now. I'll listen to some streaming service if I want to hear it clean.

Dire Straits first album with Sultans of swing...tried to replace it with 3 different vinyl versions and cd versions,can't be topped,sometimes they get it right the first time...digital/analog are not that far apart if done with passion and precision.

 

[Glmoneydawg]

I've got the Dire Straights LP, original release. . . by choice, LP transferred to digital, as transparent as I knew how, pops and crackles and all. Yeah, that's it for me. I know how to get rid of the pops and crackles and rumble, etc., but that LP is just it. Matter of fact I'll fire it up right now. I'll listen to some streaming service if I want to hear it clean.

Desert island album for me!!

 

[bigshot]

I don't think you've heard the 5.1 mix of the first Dire Straights album! It comes with a two channel remix that spanks all the previous ones too.

 

[Steve999]

Do you have a link? I can't find it.

I don't think you've heard the 5.1 mix of the first Dire Straights album! It comes with a two channel remix that spanks all the previous ones too.

 

[bfreedma]

I don't think you've heard the 5.1 mix of the first Dire Straights album! It comes with a two channel remix that spanks all the previous ones too.

Was the first Dire Straights album (Dire Straights) released in 5.1? Brothers in Arms is the 5.1 remaster I’m familiar with and it is, IMO, a very well engineered and produced release.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009A21R6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[pinnahertz]

...And now we list all the favorite old records that sound better than their re-re-re-releases on CD.

Great. We got it. The re-releases suck. I don't entirely disagree. Yes, it's worse today than ever. Yes, the older masters are often more dynamic. And next, we point fingers this way and that, blame this guy or that guy, and ultimately the "engineer" is labeled an idiot. He's only providing a service and satisfying his client so he can get paid! The choices are likely not even his! I wonder how many painters walk off the job because the decorator chose a nasty looking color. Or carpenters walk off the job because they don't like the architecture.

This is an old, and very tired discussion, and if it makes anyone feel better to complain, then go nuts. But if you don't like what you're buying, get your money back! Demand a refund because the re-mastering job isn't what you want! Tell them you hate it and it's not worth the money. Vote with your wallet, and get all your friends to do so too. Returns and refunds have an entirely different paper-trail, and often demand an explanation. So give them one. If you don't, and silently take your re-re-re-release and put it on the shelf, and only complain on a forum, this nonsense will never stop or even slow up.

Probably won't anyway, but at least you'll be pro-active. Stop deriding the tools and the engineer. There's nothing wrong with the tools or the engineer, there's nothing wrong with digital that causes this mess. Focus on the source: the kids in charge demand that the product be mastered louder, the product sells, and nobody complains to the right people, so they do it over and over.

Or buy old vinyl. Or new vinyl with more gentle mastering.

But nobody needs to go and blame the container or the guy who physically put the product into it.

 

[Steve999]

Everyone except Gimoneydawg (including me untll now) is spelling Dire Straits wrong. Just sayin'.

And [edit—bfreedma]! How about those Caps!

I can't find the original Dire Straits in 5.1 either.

And I agree the engineer-bashing is offensive. I sure don't get it.

And I would find much more interesting a discussion of which remasters are best. Like if I can find a first-class remaster of the first Dire Straits album I am all in. Can we shoehorn that into loudness wars, or is it a lost cause?

Was the first Dire Straights album (Dire Straights) released in 5.1? Brothers in Arms is the 5.1 remaster I’m familiar with and it is, IMO, a very well engineered and produced release.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009A21R6/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[bfreedma]

Everyone except Gimoneydawg (including me untll now) is spelling Dire Straits wrong. Just sayin'.

And Hockey Goalie Man! How about those Caps!

I can't find the original Dire Straits in 5.1 either.

And I agree the engineer-bashing is offensive. I sure don't get it.

And I would find much more interesting a discussion of which remasters are best. Like if I can find a first-class remaster of the first Dire Straits album I am all in. Can we shoehorn that into loudness wars, or is it a lost cause?


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When is autocorrect going to get smarter and identify those mistakes? Where is Watson based content evaluation for tablets when I need it....?

I’m not a huge fan of the band, but the 5.1 mix is good enough to listen to occasionally and it makes for a nice surround demo.

Congrats on the Caps. Will be interesting to see what happens with the coaching change.

 

[bigshot]

Do you have a link? I can't find it.

Sorry, I was thinking of Brothers in Arms. I thought Sultans of Swing was on the same album as Money for Nothing, but it isn't. SA-CD.net is a good place to find multichannel stuff.