Could you please point me in the right direction?
Aug 4, 2020 at 9:27 AM Thread Starter Post #1 of 18

MCHL

New Head-Fier
Joined
Aug 1, 2020
Posts
6
Likes
0
Location
WA
Please bear with me, as I'd never heard of DAC before last week. I tried to research my situation for weeks prior, but I'm no experienced audiophile and somehow went really wrong.

For years I'd used a Samsung Galaxy S8 with wired Sennheiser earbuds. I was pretty content with that for the sound of my music, but figured I'd invest in an upgrade since I listen a lot. I switched to an S20 and Sennheiser Momentum 2 True Wireless, but found the old combination sounded better. I'd read that wireless could be inferior, but was told it was negligible. However, I then found even the new earbuds sounded better on S8 than S20, which prompted discovery of the difference in DAC.

I'm at a bit of a loss now, having already invested and come up mistaken. It sounds like it's worth finding a DAC (and possibly new earphones again).

1) Are there DAC supporting Bluetooth that would suit my S20/Momentum 2 True Wireless, or would DAC be completely wasted without wired?

2) I've leaned to Sennheiser for preferring the sound profile and in-ear rather than over-ear because I like the feel of bass deeper than just rattling my head externally. I trialled Nuraphones from my research; are there any other brands or models recommended?

I'd like to salvage the True Wireless 2 if worthwhile, but otherwise I'll renew my original budget in hoping to spend $500-$800AUD in total across DAC/earphones.
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 3:05 PM Post #2 of 18
Whenever you are using wireless headphones, you are not using the DAC on the phone.

The phone will transmit the digital data to the headphones using Bluetooth, and then the DAC in the headphones does the conversion from digital to analogue, and then the signal gets amplified by the headphones. Assuming the Bluetooth is using LDAC, or APTX to transmit the data, then there shouldn’t be much lost in the way of sound quality during the transmission.

I would say the sound quality you hear from wireless headphone, will mostly be down to the headphones, considering they’re doing most of the work.

Wired headphones still be the main influence over the sound you hear, but will also be affected by the DAC and amp in the phone. Some phones are better than others in this respect, but are you looking to use the phone as a digital source, and plug it into an external DAC? Or are you considering a DAP as a complete alternative to using the phone for music?
 
Aug 4, 2020 at 9:09 PM Post #3 of 18
Please bear with me, as I'd never heard of DAC before last week. I tried to research my situation for weeks prior, but I'm no experienced audiophile and somehow went really wrong.

For years I'd used a Samsung Galaxy S8 with wired Sennheiser earbuds. I was pretty content with that for the sound of my music, but figured I'd invest in an upgrade since I listen a lot. I switched to an S20 and Sennheiser Momentum 2 True Wireless, but found the old combination sounded better. I'd read that wireless could be inferior, but was told it was negligible. However, I then found even the new earbuds sounded better on S8 than S20, which prompted discovery of the difference in DAC.

I'm at a bit of a loss now, having already invested and come up mistaken. It sounds like it's worth finding a DAC (and possibly new earphones again).

1) Are there DAC supporting Bluetooth that would suit my S20/Momentum 2 True Wireless, or would DAC be completely wasted without wired?

2) I've leaned to Sennheiser for preferring the sound profile and in-ear rather than over-ear because I like the feel of bass deeper than just rattling my head externally. I trialled Nuraphones from my research; are there any other brands or models recommended?

I'd like to salvage the True Wireless 2 if worthwhile, but otherwise I'll renew my original budget in hoping to spend $500-$800AUD in total across DAC/earphones.

Perhaps you mean DAP? A DAC can be onboard the phone, a small dongle that plugs into the phone or on a separate powered device (ie: your TWS has the dac built into it)


1. Mostly wasted, unless wired. Except for allowing for possibly larger memory/storage.


2. So you prefer IEM to headphones? Your dislike of the MTW2 could be that it's sound signature isn't what you prefer.


You could try a Fiio BTR3K, BTR5 or Quedelix 5K for a solution to use your current wired IEM with your S20, via Bluetooth.
 
Last edited:
Aug 4, 2020 at 10:10 PM Post #4 of 18
1) Are there DAC supporting Bluetooth that would suit my S20/Momentum 2 True Wireless, or would DAC be completely wasted without wired?

DAC means Digital to Analogue Converter.

Bluetooth transmits in digital, received in digital, then whatever receives that signal will convert it to analogue.

While there are DACs that can take a BT signal for convenience, your wireless earphones already have a DAC in them, just a really simpler single chip circuit, unlike all the filter chips and analogue output stage chips or tubes on a dedicated DAC unit. You can't feed a DAC-ed signal into a DAC, because it's a DAC, not an ADC. In short if you use a dedicated DAC to DAC the signal you can't send them into your wireless earphones to get DAC-ed again because they already got DAC-ed by that DAC.

Even your phone has a DAC even without a headphone jack. If it didn't, you can't listen through the built in speakers, because you need to DAC the YT digital signal to get amplified to drive those speakers. You just bypass the phone DAC when using BT because you can't DAC an already DAC-ed signal to get DAC-ed by something else that has its own DAC to DAC the signal.

Think of a dedicated DAC unit with a complex filtering circuit and a really good, clean, 2V or 4V analogue output stage as something like an 8-core, 8-thread, 5.3ghz i7-10700K on a Z490 Gigabyte Aorus Pro ATX that has a 12-stage VRM circuit and 4+4pin CPU power with a Gigabyte Aorus RTX 2080 Ti with separate 10-stage VRM and 8+8 PCI-E power that somehow holds 2000mhz for 15mins during a gaming session and the ndrops down to 1925mhz, and the DAC on your phone and earphones to be something like a dual core Celeron with built in HD610 graphics chip in a laptop motherboard.
 
Last edited:
Aug 5, 2020 at 7:09 AM Post #5 of 18
Thank you all so much for your help. I've had such a hard time wrapping my head around researching the possible combinations and the trade-off.

Both the S8 and the S20 are using AptX.

I figured the Momentum True Wireless 2 would be the most similar sound signature to my old earphones, as both are Sennheiser.

I'll try to research, but would a DAP be a better sound than DAC if it can also use Spotify? I'd thought my best option would be plugging an external DAC into my S20 and using files downloaded from Spotify, and then wired earphones from the DAC.

It sounds like I'll have to switch back to wired earphones rather than wireless, regardless.

Would I be better off investing more in the DAC/DAP, or the wired earphones? Which would have more of an effect on the sound quality? How would you split $500-700 to get the most out of the sound?

How much of a difference do you pay for? Is there some price range where you've reached about 95% of the possible quality, and then anything more is disproportionately paying for only 1% or less of an improvement?
 
Last edited:
Aug 5, 2020 at 9:21 AM Post #6 of 18
I figured the Momentum True Wireless 2 would be the most similar sound signature to my old earphones, as both are Sennheiser.

Intra-brand contrasts still exist. Case in point: HD700 vs IE8(0).


I'll try to research, but would a DAP be a better sound than DAC if it can also use Spotify? I'd thought my best option would be plugging an external DAC into my S20 and using files downloaded from Spotify, and then wired earphones from the DAC.

If you get a DAP you still have to deal with the software on those, although these days it's not as bad as five (much less ten) years ago.

With something like the Fiio Q5 Pro you just run BT on your phone.


It sounds like I'll have to switch back to wired earphones rather than wireless, regardless.

Would I be better off investing more in the DAC/DAP, or the wired earphones? Which would have more of an effect on the sound quality? How would you split $500-700 to get the most out of the sound?

If you have to do so because there's a particular wired headphone that has the sound you like, then find a way to drive it.

In your case without a headphone jack at all you might have to buy the DAC or DAP first, but then you could just get a relatively cheap, compact, BT-specific DAC-HPamp from Fiio.If you're driving IEMs anyway you won't need a lot of power; the only real advantage for the Q5 Pro is a bigger battery, but then again, you can just carry a powerbank.


How much of a difference do you pay for? Is there some price range where you've reached about 95% of the possible quality, and then anything more is disproportionately paying for only 1% or less of an improvement?

If you're only using IEMs this is enough for most of them.
https://www.amazon.com/FiiO-uBTR-Bl...d=1&keywords=fiio+btr1k&qid=1596632326&sr=8-3
 
Aug 6, 2020 at 9:59 AM Post #7 of 18
I'm not necessarily committed to my Sennheiser earphones, nor averse to a switch to over-ear headphones. It's just been my (limited) experience and research informing that lead. If there's much better sound in a different brand or style within similar budget, I'd definitely swap.

I may need to go back to the drawing board altogether, in that case. Forgetting my mentions of Samsung, Sennheiser and in-ear... what would you recommend as the most promising combination of DAC/DAP/IEM/headphone for $500-$700?

Granted sound is subjective, but for reference, my main goal is an immersive sound with bass of the deepest, boldest, clearest punch; more like the agile turn-on-a-dime basslines in the funk genre than muddy like in grunge or distorting like in hip hop. I do listen to a bit of heavier punk and fair amount of modern alternative/pop, but mostly 70s and 80s remasters. I tend to try sound out with Hold The Line by Toto or Baby Come Back by Player, for instance. I want to feel the punch of every beat inside my head, rather than just rattling passively on the outside of it.
 
Last edited:
Aug 6, 2020 at 11:50 AM Post #8 of 18
I'm not necessarily committed to my Sennheiser earphones, nor averse to a switch to over-ear headphones. It's just been my (limited) experience and research informing that lead. If there's much better sound in a different brand or style within similar budget, I'd definitely swap.

I may need to go back to the drawing board altogether, in that case. Forgetting my mentions of Samsung, Sennheiser and in-ear... what would you recommend as the most promising combination of DAC/DAP/IEM/headphone for $500-$700?

Granted sound is subjective, but for reference, my main goal is an immersive sound with bass of the deepest, boldest, clearest punch; more like the agile turn-on-a-dime basslines in the funk genre than muddy like in grunge or distorting like in hip hop. I do listen to a bit of heavier punk and fair amount of modern alternative/pop, but mostly 70s and 80s remasters. I tend to try sound out with Hold The Line by Toto or Baby Come Back by Player, for instance. I want to feel the punch of every beat inside my head, rather than just rattling passively on the outside of it.

If you can, maybe return the MTW2 (or sell if you can't return). Then if you don't mind try a different TWS. I'd say the Anker/Soundcore Liberty 2 Pro or Jabra 75t may work better for you.

I had the L2P, they are basshead type but still clean sounding. I haven't heard the 75t but it also has decent bass from what others here report.
 
Aug 8, 2020 at 12:50 AM Post #9 of 18
I'm under the impression that wired will always sound better than wireless, though.

I'm just not sure how much of the difference between S8/wired and S20/TW to attribute to the phone's dedicated USB DAC, and how much is the wire or its lack. I guess they're related, in that the USB DAC is only used for a wired connection...

It's discouraging to me that my cheaper S8/wired combination could sound far better than the more expensive S20/wireless. Between that and how rarely you can trial earphones (and some headphones), I'm at a loss.

The S8/wired is the best I've found so far, but... my intention was to invest in a price range and technology that by now must sound even better.

Is it common to have such a hard time finding what you're looking for? Is it just because sound profiles are subjective, or is my perspective still incomplete?
 
Aug 8, 2020 at 3:11 AM Post #10 of 18
nvvm
 
Last edited:
Aug 8, 2020 at 4:24 AM Post #11 of 18
I'm under the impression that wired will always sound better than wireless, though.

In general terms, yes.

The design for a wireless earbud has sensitivity as the utmost priority that way it will need less power to get loud, which, along with how that affects battery life, is what the market for wireless will typically look at on par with quality.

For wired designs they tend to sacrifice sensitivity if they have to if it means keeping the response flat, like having one higher freq driver being more sensitive than the low freq driver/s it's paired with, so they program the crossover to weaken the signal getting to the high freq driver. Or just a single dynamic driver that opts for integrity while it moves rather than lightening the diaphragm.

That's not where that ends though and why it's hard to assume the above will always be the case. For one you can make the earbuds so small they can't have a good battery to last longer anyway depending on how loud you listen vs their lab test and reviewers. On the wired side, sure the response of the earphones tend to be smoother or tweaked to compensate for how different IEMs are vs speakers (ie the Harman curve, or at least the left half of it, is more crucial to personal audio than speakers), but if you put it on a source with low damping factor then the power it gets is problematic, on top of which, for many IEMs, being IEMs means they get 105dB/1mW or higher sensitivity so 15mW from a smartphone or tablet goes a long way.

So you can have a fairly decent smartphone driving a decent IEM and not have trouble, but then if you drive it with one where the damping factor drops due to high output impedance, then it can sound worse (ie more distorted, lower volume) vs a wireless unit.


I'm just not sure how much of the difference between S8/wired and S20/TW to attribute to the phone's dedicated USB DAC, and how much is the wire or its lack. I guess they're related, in that the USB DAC is only used for a wired connection...

Your phone doesn't have a USB DAC. It can't even function as one the way the LG module can still be used as such when the phone breaks.

What they have is a DAC or if you used an OTG cable, sending the signal to a USB DAC and a headphone amp. The phones are like an AMD APU that has the motherboard's 4-Pin or 4+4Pin and x+y phase VRM powering it while sharing system RAM, unlike using a CPU that will use the 4(+4)-Pin power and X phase VRMs and having 16gb of memory while the GPU is on a separate board taking PCI-E power through the slot (which takes its power off the 24pin) and its own 8+8 power connector, running that through its own 7+ phase VRM and has its own 8gb of HBM or GDDR6 VRAM.

The difference though is that one has a DAC that still has a simple headphone driver circuit built into it, even that whole audio circuit is built into a Snapdragon chipset, while the other regardless of what audio chip it has doesn't have that output connected to a 3.5mm line out, just the built in speakers on the phone.


It's discouraging to me that my cheaper S8/wired combination could sound far better than the more expensive S20/wireless.

Well that's because you're using wired earphones with totally different driver design that is either designed to maximize sensitivity without sacrificing response, or you're getting the kind of response that you prefer, while the other either sacrificed response or is subjectively better to others or objectively better but not your preference either way.

And besides the added cost there isn't that the wireless is better, it's just because it's wireless.

Think of the S8 and wired earphones you like as a Lotus Elise being what you want - light, agile, fast enough. The wireless is convenient and full of features to be so, like say, a Camry V6.


The S8/wired is the best I've found so far, but... my intention was to invest in a price range and technology that by now must sound even better.

Moore's Law only applies to computer chips, and even then that kind of performance when other factors are involved doesn't work.

I mean that's like expecting a Ryzen 5 4500G to beat an old desktop using an i5-8600K and GTX 1070Ti barring choking the latter so it thermal throttles.

Or expecting a hyper convenient Camry or Accord to beat Lotus Elise with an old 1.8L Toyota engine or an equally old S2000 with a 9000rpm engine when the latter pair are lightweight RWD cars that will go around corners a lot faster.


Is it common to have such a hard time finding what you're looking for?

To put it in perspective, Amazon banned somebody here after buying and returning two dozen headphones or thereabouts.


Is it just because sound profiles are subjective, or is my perspective still incomplete?

Either your wired earphones match your subjective preferences while the wireless might be objectively better, or your wired earphones can be subjectively good while the wireless are also objectively bad; or it could be your wired earphones are objectively better.

That gets worse if you don't want any compromises on convenience and size.

Regardless of which one it is, going with wired earphones is more likely to get something that is objectively better unless you can pinpoint your subjective bias (which may still be easier to find on wired headphones) and you can be directed to that, and then just get a DAC+HPamp to drive it. You'll really just have to accept some compromises, like "larger Q5 Pro" vs "not all-day BTR1 battery life."
 
Aug 8, 2020 at 10:18 AM Post #12 of 18
I'd like to salvage the True Wireless 2 if worthwhile, but otherwise I'll renew my original budget in hoping to spend $500-$800AUD in total across DAC/earphones.
Do you only listen on-the-go? What about keeping your existing setup for when you are away, and add a desktop system for home use?
 
Aug 8, 2020 at 10:49 AM Post #13 of 18
I'm sorry, I should probably have also clarified my usage. 95% of the time I'll be listening at my desk, whether home or work office. The other 5% would be either laying down, or on the train. I'm absolutely open to compromise on size and portability, and in fact wireless was only ever a 'nice to have' for me (before I learned of the other differences).

Likewise, the IEM is not at all a preference for portability but rather just that my limited experience has suggested an earbud drives the bass deeper into my head, whereas over-ear headphones seem to sound more 'external' on the whole and kind of just rattle against the outside of my head. Is it possible for over-ear headphones to drive that sound to an internal level like an IEM? I've read over-ear can pack more power, but I haven't found some that match that bold and consistent 'surge' from the start of the ear canal inward like an earphone.

I'm thinking my ideal set up might be shaping up as tracks downloaded via Spotify on my S20, connected to a DAC/amp, connected to a wired in-ear or over-ear headphone. Does that sound right?

Context for your patience, I've been trying to research this for a month and it's caused a lot of anxiety. My family wanted to contribute to a present for my 30th birthday, and this is what I knew would mean something to me.
 
Aug 8, 2020 at 11:26 AM Post #14 of 18
I'm thinking my ideal set up might be shaping up as tracks downloaded via Spotify on my S20, connected to a DAC/amp, connected to a wired in-ear or over-ear headphone. Does that sound right?
Yes, that will work and should provide a significant bump in sound quality if done right. Or you can stream to the DAC from a computer or tablet. I have some recommendations for desktop gear that punches above its weight: Schiit Modi 3, Magni 3 and Drop Hifiman 4XX headphones. Total cost is just under $400.
 
Last edited:
Aug 8, 2020 at 12:33 PM Post #15 of 18
nvm
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top