Copper vs Silver?
Aug 23, 2005 at 6:41 PM Thread Starter Post #1 of 39

akwok

Headphoneus Supremus
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Hi all,

I'm now loving my current setup. But I'm missing a wee bit of brightness and resolution.. I was initially thinking of upgrading my source to something like the DAC1, but I am also considering silver interconnects. Is there a substantial and noticeable difference going from copper to silver (Kimber Kables), or is it very subtle?

Thanks
Adrian
 
Aug 23, 2005 at 6:58 PM Post #2 of 39
Big difference, but I didn't like silver when I tried it.

And I was told that I may like silver if I tried a different pair.
 
Aug 23, 2005 at 7:05 PM Post #3 of 39
small difference if any. a cable is a passive device and can not change the signal substantually. If it could, then the PCB, resistors and internal wires would change the signal edit: substantually also, which they don't. edit: IMO
 
Aug 23, 2005 at 7:10 PM Post #4 of 39
Here's my take from my recent Grover UR review (easier to just cut and paste:
Quote:

The Grovers are the first silver cables I’ve ever liked. Of the two dozen different cables I’ve owned, 5 were pure silver and two were silver/copper hybrids. People who praise any given silver cable always seem to do so with the exact same disclaimer—“wow-- these silver cables are great; they don’t even sound like silver cables!” Well, if the only good silver cable is the rare exception that doesn’t sound like a silver cable, why not just stick with good ol’ copper? The stereotype of silver interconnects used to be that they were “bright”, “tipped up”, “edgy” and “forward”. Makers of silver cables are now always quick to tell you that their cables defy that stereotype.

And sure enough, none of the silver cables I tried exhibited these characteristics. Instead, each of the pure silver cables I auditioned were *thin*-sounding with a sort of gauzy, soft-focus Vaseline-on-the-lens, foggy quality. They did lack bass somewhat but they weren’t necessarily bright. They were tipped up in the high frequencies but remained too soft and silky to be objectionable. Yes, proportionately they had more high-end than bottom, but at least the silver cables produced clean, smooth and polite treble response. I would have actually loved for them to exhibit a little more of the crispness and focus that stereotypical silver cables were "supposed" to deliver.

After those experiences, I had given up on silver as a conductor. I chalked it up to a sort of scam perpetrated by cable makers who hoped that gullible customers would assume that since silver is more expensive than copper, it must therefore be a better conductor, and thus get them to upgrade. After all, where can you go really with a copper cable after the $500-$700 price point without arousing a lot of suspicion about how much those cables *really* cost to make? Incorporating silver conductors seems like a useful marketing gimmick to enable $1000 + cables. (Not that that’s stopped cable-makers from producing $5K+ copper cables!) I suspect there are lots of electrical/chemical factors involved in making one metal a better conductor than another, but I doubt that scarcity on planet earth is one of them. I still do get a good chuckle out of the recent proliferation of cables with *gold* conductors, though.

Anyway, my experience with the Grover Ultimate Reference pure silver cable has really changed my mind about silver interconnects. (EDIT: Grover has verified that his latest revision of the UR uses both silver *and* copper, unlike previous versions and previous models that were 100% silver). I now realize that the debate between copper vs. silver is on the same sort of shaky footing as the tubes vs. solid state debate, the CD vs. SACD debate, the speaker cones vs. electrostatic debate—the answer is, *it all depends on IMPLEMENTATION*. A well-executed CD will sound better than a badly-executed hi-rez disc, a well-executed tube circuit will out-perform a badly-executed solid-state device, etc. etc. I don’t know if in the abstract silver is a better conductor than copper, but I do know that the Grovers are the best-sounding cables I’ve ever heard.

How much of that is due to its use of pure silver (or despite it), I’ll never know, frankly no longer care. Still, what’s inside a Grover cable? I suspect only Grover knows for sure, and at the moment he ain’t talking. No web site, no brochures, no marketing bullet points, no graphics showing cross-sections of his cables, no outrageous claims. Just one model, no big product line with multiple upgrade points to cause anxiety and sleepless nights ("would I be happier *if only* I had ordered the next model up?"). You get the feeling that as far as Grover is concerned, the Ultimate Reference is IT, there is no upgrade path, just one cable that represents his best effort, period, and there’s something both elegant and comforting about that.

And the cost of entry is a mere $140. That makes this cable available essentially to everyone.


 
Aug 23, 2005 at 7:41 PM Post #5 of 39
markl,
(EDIT: Grover has verified that his latest revision of the UR uses both silver *and* copper, unlike previous versions and previous models that were 100% silver).

Not true. The Empress which was made by Grover used silver but various copper configurations for the ground. I know since I helped build them.

Meat01,
My experience has always indicated that the type and tolerance of a resistor in the circuit always made a huge difference. With regard to PCB's I guess there must not be any reason then that the military has very strict MIL spec requirements on how their PCB's are manufactured or perform. And, obviously you have not experimented to any degree with the various sonic changes attributed to not only the difference between silver and copper, but we can probably include palladium and gold etc. Not only is their a huge difference in the type used but the configuration of said wire.

Hope this clarifys some things,
Regards and respectfully
Michael Wolff
 
Aug 23, 2005 at 10:00 PM Post #6 of 39
If only it were as simple as silver or copper. It's all about the sound and that's it in a nutshell. It doesn't matter whether it's silver or copper. What sounds best in your system is the best cable for you.

Designing around the pluses and minuses of the materials you build a cable with is the name of the game. Silver is more conductive that is a fact, that doesn't mean it will be thin and bright sounding, but used improperly in the wrong configuration it often ends up sounding like that. Copper is a bit more forgiving just because it is less conductive and doesn't pass on artifacts as readily.

Artifacts are signals that are generated inside the cables themselves. When an analog signal passes through a cable it rubs against the dielectric (insulation) and generates a signal of it's own, an artifact. These problems vary depending on the insulation, the shielding, the dielectric, even the jacket material used.

These are only a few of the myriad issues a cable designer faces. Getting the picture? There is only one way to determine which cables will be best, you must try them and use them for a period of time. Long enough to get past your analytical self and judge the enjoyment you experience as you listen. Accuracy is important because this makes the enjoyment last a long time. Lifted volume at one or many frequencies, or reduced volume at one or many frequencies makes music listening a homogenous experience. Everything takes on the characteristic of the cables. Of course this is true of all the various devices in your system.

Being able to listen for a long time and not feeling fatigued by it all is a very good sign that overall things are going well. Unfortunately this takes time but pays of handsomely in the long run.

So buy a good set of cables. I will say this, silver cables in most cases cost more. If they don't they usually have not been designed particularly well. They are just throwing the materials list at you in the hope you will try to quantitatively analyze performance. Don't fall for it! Listening is the only way to go.

There are better cables out there that don't cost an arm and a leg, do your homework and you'll find something that enhances your listening pleasure.

By the way, anyone who says cables don't matter is either deaf, exceptionally stubborn, or hasn't tried anything that has any real value sonically. Oddly enough even crap cables sound different so I'm baffled as to how a person could miss the differences between any two cables at any price.

This bit of information doesn't even begin to explore the complexities of cabling. But it should help you realize that your ears are very good and will get better if you "exercise" them. Nobody ever mistook the sound coming from an audio system as real live music. That is proof enough that anybodies ears are good enough to tell the difference. Maybe not all the differences but the areas where their hearing goes is all that counts. If it is sounds better there what else do you need to know?
 
Aug 23, 2005 at 11:35 PM Post #7 of 39
Hifiguy,
I agree with you totally. Slapping wire, any wire, inside a tube and terminating it with any connector, will make you an interconnect, but how it will perform may or may not be to your liking.
It is an art. Cheap or inexpensive interconnects are usually very limited since their construction does not inbvolve a huge amount of research and development. They are made simply and are targeted for a particular type of client. I can almost assure you that the words good and cheap will never be used accurately in describing any audio product.
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 12:44 AM Post #8 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelhwolff
I can almost assure you that the words good and cheap will never be used accurately in describing any audio product.


Explain the prodigious popularity of the Grado SR-60($69) on this forum, as well as the various sub-$100 pocket amps.
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 12:46 AM Post #9 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by Twombly
Explain the prodigious popularity of the Grado SR-60($69) on this forum, as well as the various sub-$100 pocket amps.


Good is relative. I do not find any of the sub $100 pocket amps 'good'. It's good for the money, but not 'good' good.
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 1:22 AM Post #10 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01
small difference if any. a cable is a passive device and can not change the signal substantually. If it could, then the PCB, resistors and internal wires would change the signal also, which they don't.


If you don't think cables have much of an an effect on sound that's fine and dandy and you're entitled to your opinion, but this thread isn't about whether you do or don't believe that cables have an audible effect on sound, so STF up and start your own thread on the subject if you wish to discuss it instead of crapping in this one.
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 1:24 AM Post #11 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by Twombly
Explain the prodigious popularity of the Grado SR-60($69) on this forum, as well as the various sub-$100 pocket amps.


Are you attributing that something which is popular must also be good?
Jihad is very very popular in with certain groups of people.
Unprotected sex is popular also.
Ford Pintos were also popular.
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 1:26 AM Post #12 of 39
Quote:

Originally Posted by akwok
Good is relative. I do not find any of the sub $100 pocket amps 'good'. It's good for the money, but not 'good' good.


It all depends on frame of reference, I suppose.
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 1:27 AM Post #13 of 39
To my ears silver increases detail but loses a measure of top end air and transparency. You might want to give solid core copper a try... all the detail of silver with no loss of top end air and transparency.
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 1:31 AM Post #14 of 39
AKWOK.
Bypassing all the debate and getting back to your question. YES, most definetly silver can add the sheen you are looking for. But be careful so can different copper cables depending on how they are designed. The same can be for the silver. Design will determine the outcome. I would recommend giving them a try. Find a designer that is in your price range and request a trial.
OR, do what a lot of Audiogoners do. Take your best shot and if it doesn't work out, sell them and try something different. It is not an easy road we travel down with our obsessions.
But Best of Luck

Michael
 
Aug 24, 2005 at 1:43 AM Post #15 of 39
Quote:

If you don't think cables have much of an an effect on sound that's fine and dandy and you're entitled to your opinion, but this thread isn't about whether you do or don't believe that cables have an audible effect on sound, so STF up and start your own thread on the subject if you wish to discuss it instead of crapping in this one.


Where did I say that I do not believe in cables in this thread?

Is a cable an active or a passive device?

Do passive devices change the signal substantially? If so, I would love to know how.

How did I thread crap, by not having the same opinion as you?

The original poster asked if copper and silver would make a substantial difference and I said they would not.

I think you need to read the posts before you start telling people to ****.
rolleyes.gif
 

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