Connecting your source directly to a power amplifier

[estreeter]

Quote:

I myself am looking for a good passive balance control. Any ideas?

 
Budget ? I think there are plenty of 'ideas' in this thread, but its going to come down to money. 

 

[mwilson]

$1-2k, but only really need balance control. I did see the pwd post, but I'm not going to switch DACs.

 

[wuwhere]

Quote:

$1-2k, but only really need balance control. I did see the pwd post, but I'm not going to switch DACs.

 
How about this one?
 
http://www.goldpt.com/sa1x.html
 
Or this one?
 
http://www.placetteaudio.com/

 

[mwilson]

Thanks, I'll check out

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

 
How about this one?
 
http://www.goldpt.com/sa1x.html
 
Or this one?
 
http://www.placetteaudio.com/

 
Thanks for that Goldpoint link - they werent on my radar - this is fast becoming a very handy reference for Head-Fiers going forward. Its surprising the number of components (not headphone-specific) where Google returns a Head-Fi thread as the only hit beyond the manufacturers' page. We are a curious bunch. 

 

[estreeter]

I like the fact that Goldpoint make their basic enclosure available to DiYers at very reasonable cost. Placette seems to get a lot more 'digital ink', but Goldpoint's pricing is less than half of the Placette solution - its good to have options, Note that Placette make some very good arguments in their FAQ for their product over using the volume control on your source, This flies in the face of advice given elsewhere, and I'm always wary of marketing claims based on a single 'golden bullet' audiophile part - I paid extra for the Vishay pot in my uHA-120 only to find that it suffered from channel imbalance at low volumes, Justin has since fixed this, but its annoying nonetheless - hopefully their uber-expensive (?) resistors dont suffer from any such malady. I'd be interested to DBT a Centrance DACMini CX with the optional ($99) variable-out mod against a CX with the Placette pre. One can only assume  that Centrance arent using too many audiophile resistors, but the proof would be in the listening, 
 
 
Why use a Pre-Amp at all? Why not just connect my CD player directly to the power amp and use variable output of the CD player to control the volume?

[size=x-small]That would be a great idea if your CD player, DAC or Phono Pre-Amp came equipped with a 126 step attenuator that used only Vishay® S-102 resistors. These very expensive and transparent resistors have to be heard to be believed. The most dramatic listening test of all is to compare the sound of the "Variable Out" of your source with the clarity, dynamics and purity obtained by using the "Line Out" from the same source and going through the Vishay®S102 attenuator of a Placette unit instead of the built in volume control of the source. This simple test (and the one below) demonstrates what a very weak link the volume control in your system really is.[/size]

 
On balance controls:
 
 
Why don't Placette Products have balance controls?

[size=x-small]A remote operated balance control is available on all Placette products as an extra cost option. We have only built a very few Preamps with this option because the tracking of our stepped attenuator is so perfect that it is not needed. The volume output from each channel is always perfectly balanced from channel to channel at every one of the 126 volume steps.[/size]

 

[Donald North]

My favorite passive volume controls are transformer volume controls. When properly matched with source and load, they have exceptional dynamics, bass drive, clarity, and an overall fun & involving sound. I built my own using Silver Rock modules from Audio Consulting in Switzerland.

 

[obobskivich]

I like the fact that Goldpoint make their basic enclosure available to DiYers at very reasonable cost. Placette seems to get a lot more 'digital ink', but Goldpoint's pricing is less than half of the Placette solution - its good to have options, Note that Placette make some very good arguments in their FAQ for their product over using the volume control on your source, This flies in the face of advice given elsewhere, and I'm always wary of marketing claims based on a single 'golden bullet' audiophile part - I paid extra for the Vishay pot in my uHA-120 only to find that it suffered from channel imbalance at low volumes, Justin has since fixed this, but its annoying nonetheless - hopefully their uber-expensive (?) resistors dont suffer from any such malady. I'd be interested to DBT a Centrance DACMini CX with the optional ($99) variable-out mod against a CX with the Placette pre. One can only assume  that Centrance arent using too many audiophile resistors, but the proof would be in the listening, 

Why use a Pre-Amp at all? Why not just connect my CD player directly to the power amp and use variable output of the CD player to control the volume?​

That would be a great idea if your CD player, DAC or Phono Pre-Amp came equipped with a 126 step attenuator that used only Vishay® S-102 resistors. These very expensive and transparent resistors have to be heard to be believed. The most dramatic listening test of all is to compare the sound of the "Variable Out" of your source with the clarity, dynamics and purity obtained by using the "Line Out" from the same source and going through the Vishay®S102 attenuator of a Placette unit instead of the built in volume control of the source. This simple test (and the one below) demonstrates what a very weak link the volume control in your system really is.​

On balance controls:

Why don't Placette Products have balance controls?​

A remote operated balance control is available on all Placette products as an extra cost option. We have only built a very few Preamps with this option because the tracking of our stepped attenuator is so perfect that it is not needed. The volume output from each channel is always perfectly balanced from channel to channel at every one of the 126 volume steps.​

Lots of dubious-ness in those quotes - setting off my "nonsense" detector and all that. That Goldpoint is FAR from reasonable imho - $500 for a pot? Better come with a nice pipe...

The "proof" would be in a controlled test or at least some sort of validated numbers. Anything that insists we have to "hear to believe" is really just pushing product...

Anyways, for those interested, you can build your own stepped attenuator:
http://www.dhtrob.com/projecten/stapp_schakelaar1_en.php

Get as fancy as you like.

Digital controllers will do all of this on an IC, some offer a silly number of steps (Cirrus has a model that can provide 95.5 dB of attenuation and 31.5 dB of gain, and can step at half a dB (smaller than you'll be able to notice), for example - it costs around $8).

Balance controls are also something you can build.

Here's an ESP project that talks about both:
http://sound.westhost.com/project01.htm

Alternately, you could take a line from Koss, STAX, and Darkvoice, and run each channel with it's own mono volume control (conveniently, the IC will do that too, but you could also just build a pair of mono stepped attenuators or get a pair of mono pots). Works out just as well, and avoids all of the problems associated with dedicated balance controls.

Donald,

Can you share more about your project, or does the MOT status get in the way?

 

[Donald North]

Sure, I built a passive preamp using the Audio Consulting Silver Rock transformers. I listened to other TVCs and preferred the sound of the Silver Rock. I used a Shallco 24 position dual deck switch and a Bent Audio remote control module with stepper motor to drive the Shallco.
 
http://www.audio-consulting.ch/?Parts:Silver_Rock_TVC
 
Other companies make TVC modules including Intact Audio, Silk, Tribute Audio. You can also buy ready made units from Antique Sound Labs, Promitheus Audio, and Music First.
Quote:

Donald,
Can you share more about your project, or does the MOT status get in the way?

 

[wuwhere]

Yes, some of these, passive preamps which are essentially var pots in a box w/ input and output, are quite expensive based on the cost of the materials. But I think its labor intensive to manually solder those resistors.

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

Yes, some of these, passive preamps which are essentially var pots in a box w/ input and output, are quite expensive based on the cost of the materials. But I think its labor intensive to manually solder those resistors.

 
And I fully accept that, just as I accept that the cost of designing and creating an iPhone goes way beyond the tiny parts cost quoted by every media outlet on the planet when it was revealed. The DiY community often ignores the costs of distribution and things like individual parts that just don't cut the mustard when they are ordered in batches of a hundred. Obo (sorry - that board name is just too long to type !) makes some excellent points throughout this thread, but ultimately Placette and others are relying on that old standby - audiophilia nervosa. They know that if they can sow the seeds of doubt about your current setup, its highly likely that your next thousand dollars of disposable income could well find its way into their coffers. Ironically, its the incredibly high cost of many active preamps that lead me down this road in the first place - the first time I saw the SPL Volume Control I couldn't believe that anyone would pay money for such a thing, Having recently scanned the latest MiT Cables pricelist, everything else mentioned in this thread falls into the 'insane audiophile bargain' bin  

 
Of course, the skeptical would be shouting 'What - a thousand bucks ?!? Spend it on better speakers/headphones/new tyres !' - its only when you read about Nelson Pass' efforts that you find yourself getting sucked into the vortex. Suddenly, all those transformers, capacitors and resistors are useless, and its that 5 dollar volume pot which is consigning your potential musical enjoyment to the hell of digititis,  Think happy thoughts, people.  

 

[wuwhere]

The only Nelson Pass designed preamp I've ever owned was a TF-10 which I replaced with a VTL Ultimate.
The only preamp I would like to have would be a David Berning TF-12.

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

My favorite passive volume controls are transformer volume controls. When properly matched with source and load, they have exceptional dynamics, bass drive, clarity, and an overall fun & involving sound. I built my own using Silver Rock modules from Audio Consulting in Switzerland.

 
Hi Donald,
 
      I know that your MoT status means you have to be diplomatic, but do you think this whole 'active vs passive' thing is overstated ? You have kept the retail price of the Sonett within reach of many Head-Fiers for quite a few years, so I'm assuming you didn't have to buy (and solder) the aforementioned expensive Vishay resistors simply to give your customers an attenuator. Appreciate your input, btw. 
 
Thanks,
 
PS Congratulations on the Stratus, and on daring to offer tube amps in something other than black or silver casings. 

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

The only Nelson Pass designed preamp I've ever owned was a TF-10 which I replaced with a VTL Ultimate.
The only preamp I would like to have would be a David Berning TF-12.

I dont know about those products, but the Aleph was supposed to be a 'giant killer' - unfortunately, I can only go on what Ive read. 

 

[estreeter]

Quote:

Alternately, you could take a line from Koss, STAX, and Darkvoice, and run each channel with it's own mono volume control (conveniently, the IC will do that too, but you could also just build a pair of mono stepped attenuators or get a pair of mono pots). Works out just as well, and avoids all of the problems associated with dedicated balance controls.
 

 
Looks like Steve Deckert was on the same wavelength back in 2009 when he designed the Mini-Torii:
 
 
[size=10pt]DUAL VOLUME[/size]
[size=10pt]Since this is a dual mono amp it is simply two matching mono amplifiers each with their own power supply, on/off switch, and volume control.  The only thing that is tied to both amps is the tone control - which is defeatable.  Dual volume has two advantages, 1) better stereo separation and 2) It allows you to raise the level of one speaker first and then raise the level of the second to match.  It might seem like a less than easy way to adjust volume but unlike a balance control, it gives you deeper control to lock in your sound stage.   The amp can be built with a single volume control and even a conventional balance control as a custom option.[/size]
 
I do a double take when I see an amp with two volume pots, but suddenly it makes a little more sense. The other camp would probably say it flies in the face of the 'keep it simple' mantra, so I guess its a balancing act.