[frostyforst]

Hi I'm a complete newbie, I'm not sure if it's ok to ask questions here.

But recently my casual headphones broke (apple airpods max) so I dived into the rabbit hole of audiophile headphones. I feel like I dont really want battery headphones as they break all the time and might as well just invest into a quality device that can last a long time.

I have a friend who gave me some devices to try at home. Right now I have a Fiio k7 connected to my mac mini. Then I went on to try the senn hd600s2 and HD800S. Then went on to play some pop songs (which is mostly what I listen to) on apple music set to apple lossless.

Given that I know next to nothing about sound, I do find a few things interesting compared to airpods:

• First thing first, the vocals just stand out a lot more than airpods. Like the singer is probably the thing that differs the most
• It's also interesting that there are certain instruments that just appear out of nowhere even though some songs I must have listened to 100s of times
• It's interesting that I can hear the harmony signers a lot more
• I dont find that much difference in base, or lower end. It's a lot more "accurate" if that makes sense but its not like it's 3x stronger or anything

Now, onto the question. Given that HD800S is already quite a high end headphone, my question is it ever possible to get to a level of equipment where I could hear the singer singing in my room as if the signer is in front of me on stage? Like is that a physical possibility? Because even with these expensive headphones, it never felt that way. It honestly still very much feel like the signer is in a box and the box is piped into my ears.

The only time I think Ive ever come close to this experience is withs speakers in a room. But from what I read I should be able to replicate this sound with headphones with MUCH cheaper equipment (btw I'm not talking about the feeling of the bass on my chest kind of thing, I dont care for that). So I guess my question is, is there a path to get there? And maybe I'm just missing the technical know hows? Or should I just lower my expectations and maybe look into spending even more and switch to speakers?

 

[castleofargh]

Sorry, This is a very complicated question with nearly no sure answer for you. A small percentage of people will just never get a perception of frontal distance on headphones. That seems to be observed and reported anecdotally by various researchers.
In principle, it's fairly normal for you not to get a perception of frontal distance because headphone playback is messing too much with the track (most albums were made using speaker), and your usual perception of sound (the sound starts at your ears, instead of coming from a place at some distance, bouncing and changing on your body, head and ears in a way that's natural for you. cf HRTF). Some people certainly describe big space on headphones, talk about how many rows of distance and what not, and I see no reason to call them liars. I have never perceived that with normal stereo headphone playback, and I tried a bunch of audio gear over the years, so I can confidently say that it's not that I didn't have the right headphone or didn't power it with the right amplifier or used the right DAC. My brain just doesn't manage to believe when so much is objectively and noticeably wrong in the stereo signal at my ears, while my eyes and head movements scream that this imaging thing is BS. I guess it's down to luck and your own brain ability for imagination?

You should try to test a few things, maybe some crossfeed solution(there are many on Windows, but IDK about the Apple world). If you can, it might be interesting for you to try the AirPods something with the 3D thingy when listening to multichannel audio(I'm guessing Atmos?). It's not a solution for stereo as AFAIK it doesn't work for stereo, but it could let you experience basic head tracking to find out if you feel like you need that(some don't care at all, while some like me can't maintain a perception of distance without head tracking).
Beyond that, there are now a few solutions for speaker simulation. But for the most part, you'll have to prepare yourself mentally for the hours you'll end up spending to learn about stuff and trying measurements, setup and what not. Even the more expensive ones aren't particularly easier to set up. But I think it would be better for you to know if you need head tracking before spending your money. Or you might just go and try with minimum investment but a lot of time and personal work, https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/Impulcifer which is free(you need binaural microphones, maybe a cheap ADC) for any question the thread with the 8 dudes who tried and figured out most of it is here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/recording-impulse-responses-for-speaker-virtualization.890719/
If you don't care about head tracking, this might be the best spatial audio experience for almost no money. If you're rich go get a Realiser A16(still a lot of work), and in between are still a few other solutions with different approaches to measurements or just more standardized models that will work better for some people than others(again with the luck factor).

 

[HiFiWar]

Hi I'm a complete newbie, I'm not sure if it's ok to ask questions here.

But recently my casual headphones broke (apple airpods max) so I dived into the rabbit hole of audiophile headphones. I feel like I dont really want battery headphones as they break all the time and might as well just invest into a quality device that can last a long time.

I have a friend who gave me some devices to try at home. Right now I have a Fiio k7 connected to my mac mini. Then I went on to try the senn hd600s2 and HD800S. Then went on to play some pop songs (which is mostly what I listen to) on apple music set to apple lossless.

Given that I know next to nothing about sound, I do find a few things interesting compared to airpods:

• First thing first, the vocals just stand out a lot more than airpods. Like the singer is probably the thing that differs the most
• It's also interesting that there are certain instruments that just appear out of nowhere even though some songs I must have listened to 100s of times
• It's interesting that I can hear the harmony signers a lot more
• I dont find that much difference in base, or lower end. It's a lot more "accurate" if that makes sense but its not like it's 3x stronger or anything

Now, onto the question. Given that HD800S is already quite a high end headphone, my question is it ever possible to get to a level of equipment where I could hear the singer singing in my room as if the signer is in front of me on stage? Like is that a physical possibility? Because even with these expensive headphones, it never felt that way. It honestly still very much feel like the signer is in a box and the box is piped into my ears.

The only time I think Ive ever come close to this experience is withs speakers in a room. But from what I read I should be able to replicate this sound with headphones with MUCH cheaper equipment (btw I'm not talking about the feeling of the bass on my chest kind of thing, I dont care for that). So I guess my question is, is there a path to get there? And maybe I'm just missing the technical know hows? Or should I just lower my expectations and maybe look into spending even more and switch to speakers?

Yes, it's definitely possible, but expensive to do it well.

 

[ardbeg1975]

Yes, it's definitely possible, but expensive to do it well.

And usually (but not always) involves tube amps.

 

[HiFiWar]

And usually (but not always) involves tube amps.

Which have their own set of issues, or at least... idiosyncrasies.

 

[BS5711]

I have never had a sense of sounds coming from in front if my with headphones or IEM.

Left, behind, right, up and down and every place in between with no effort at all, and DACs and amplifiers don’t make any difference, but never forward.

 

[jmwant]

With an IEM, not so much. With speakers, yeah it's possible.

 

[Orfik]

Hi I'm a complete newbie, I'm not sure if it's ok to ask questions here.

But recently my casual headphones broke (apple airpods max) so I dived into the rabbit hole of audiophile headphones. I feel like I dont really want battery headphones as they break all the time and might as well just invest into a quality device that can last a long time.

I have a friend who gave me some devices to try at home. Right now I have a Fiio k7 connected to my mac mini. Then I went on to try the senn hd600s2 and HD800S. Then went on to play some pop songs (which is mostly what I listen to) on apple music set to apple lossless.

Given that I know next to nothing about sound, I do find a few things interesting compared to airpods:

• First thing first, the vocals just stand out a lot more than airpods. Like the singer is probably the thing that differs the most
• It's also interesting that there are certain instruments that just appear out of nowhere even though some songs I must have listened to 100s of times
• It's interesting that I can hear the harmony signers a lot more
• I dont find that much difference in base, or lower end. It's a lot more "accurate" if that makes sense but its not like it's 3x stronger or anything

Now, onto the question. Given that HD800S is already quite a high end headphone, my question is it ever possible to get to a level of equipment where I could hear the singer singing in my room as if the signer is in front of me on stage? Like is that a physical possibility? Because even with these expensive headphones, it never felt that way. It honestly still very much feel like the signer is in a box and the box is piped into my ears.

The only time I think Ive ever come close to this experience is withs speakers in a room. But from what I read I should be able to replicate this sound with headphones with MUCH cheaper equipment (btw I'm not talking about the feeling of the bass on my chest kind of thing, I dont care for that). So I guess my question is, is there a path to get there? And maybe I'm just missing the technical know hows? Or should I just lower my expectations and maybe look into spending even more and switch to speakers?

You would need better amplification. As you scale up the quality of your amp and DAC with good headphones like the 800s your music will become more realistic. It may not present directly in front of you (I've had that experience with some songs using my FH7 and Cayin RU6, that dongle is the best for vocals), but everything will be more immersive and life-like.

 

[TyTB]

Sorry, This is a very complicated question with nearly no sure answer for you. A small percentage of people will just never get a perception of frontal distance on headphones. That seems to be observed and reported anecdotally by various researchers.
In principle, it's fairly normal for you not to get a perception of frontal distance because headphone playback is messing too much with the track (most albums were made using speaker), and your usual perception of sound (the sound starts at your ears, instead of coming from a place at some distance, bouncing and changing on your body, head and ears in a way that's natural for you. cf HRTF). Some people certainly describe big space on headphones, talk about how many rows of distance and what not, and I see no reason to call them liars. I have never perceived that with normal stereo headphone playback, and I tried a bunch of audio gear over the years, so I can confidently say that it's not that I didn't have the right headphone or didn't power it with the right amplifier or used the right DAC. My brain just doesn't manage to believe when so much is objectively and noticeably wrong in the stereo signal at my ears, while my eyes and head movements scream that this imaging thing is BS. I guess it's down to luck and your own brain ability for imagination?

You should try to test a few things, maybe some crossfeed solution(there are many on Windows, but IDK about the Apple world). If you can, it might be interesting for you to try the AirPods something with the 3D thingy when listening to multichannel audio(I'm guessing Atmos?). It's not a solution for stereo as AFAIK it doesn't work for stereo, but it could let you experience basic head tracking to find out if you feel like you need that(some don't care at all, while some like me can't maintain a perception of distance without head tracking).
Beyond that, there are now a few solutions for speaker simulation. But for the most part, you'll have to prepare yourself mentally for the hours you'll end up spending to learn about stuff and trying measurements, setup and what not. Even the more expensive ones aren't particularly easier to set up. But I think it would be better for you to know if you need head tracking before spending your money. Or you might just go and try with minimum investment but a lot of time and personal work, https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/Impulcifer which is free(you need binaural microphones, maybe a cheap ADC) for any question the thread with the 8 dudes who tried and figured out most of it is here https://www.head-fi.org/threads/recording-impulse-responses-for-speaker-virtualization.890719/
If you don't care about head tracking, this might be the best spatial audio experience for almost no money. If you're rich go get a Realiser A16(still a lot of work), and in between are still a few other solutions with different approaches to measurements or just more standardized models that will work better for some people than others(again with the luck factor).

This is an excellent reply. I find myself to be in the exact same, crappy boat as Castleofargh. OP, if you want, go through my post history, you'll see a few posts from the past week where I've been discussing the exact same thing with others here. I listened to the HD800s on thousands and thousands of dollars of amplification equipment at multiple stores, with lossless playback of some artists and tracks that are SPECIFICALLY known for having huge sound-stages.... and yet, none of it made any difference to me. All of the instruments and sound was coming from inside my head, nothing from outside. Meanwhile, others in the forums are swearing that the instruments are several FEET away.

It seems I am just anatomically incapable of hearing a stereo headphone playback in a 3D way, just like Castleofargh.

DSP and 3D Audio trickery might be the only option I have left. You might be in the same boat as us. Welcome aboard.

 

[frostyforst]

You would need better amplification. As you scale up the quality of your amp and DAC with good headphones like the 800s your music will become more realistic. It may not present directly in front of you (I've had that experience with some songs using my FH7 and Cayin RU6, that dongle is the best for vocals), but everything will be more immersive and life-like.

what would you consider to be better amp for the 800s? To have real directional sound.

 

[Orfik]

what would you consider to be better amp for the 800s? To have real directional sound.

I recently auditioned them with my RU7, which has some of the best imaging I've heard on any device, and they were excellent even out of the 3.5mm jack. Switching to 4.4mm would bring out more detail, space and resolution. Pairing them with a DAP like something from AK or FiiO, or higher end DAC like a Chord Mojo 2 would create even more lifelike results. I don't have that much experience with higher end desktop amps, so someone else would have to advise you about those.