Comparisons of the Liquid Lightning and KGSSHV Solid State Stax Amplifiers

[purrin]

Thanks for that link (my HF reading is limited toward my subscriptions and links of interest provided to me by friends). I think it's pretty cool you guys did a blind test. 

 

[livewire]

Although it has nothing to do with the LL or KGSSHV amps. Man that guy is annoying.

 

[zerodeefex]

The other site's KGSSHV thread won't show up in google.  
You'll have to go there and trawl through the thread for the info...

 
I see HC results in Google? What parts of that forum aren't crawlable? 
 
If you're talking about HW, there's one article there about the KGSS (not KGSSHV) that mimics what Justin has up which is almost certainly a result taken from simulation.

 

[En_R]

Kind of pointless to state specs about KGSSHV. Every build varies.
 
Unless MH here has actually run tests on his KGSSHV everything is moot.

 

[gurubhai]

But surely Mr. Gilmore must have done some real world measurements of his prototypes, I am having difficulty believing that an engineer of his reputation would design products based on simulations alone.
And if these measurements exist, then is there any reason that they aren't made accessible to larger public esp. since the rival manufacturers(Cavalli, EC ) have measurements on their product pages.

 

[sachu]

I don't think we will ever see independent measurements of the HV version of the SRM 717.  For now one can only can extrapolate from Stax measurements since the KGSS is a copy of Stax's SRM 717 design. 
 
Alternatively as Gurubhai pointed out Dr.Cavalli and Craig have real world measurements in place.  

 

[MacedonianHero]

  Kind of pointless to state specs about KGSSHV. Every build varies.
 
Unless MH here has actually run tests on his KGSSHV everything is moot.

That spec is on another website and I have it also from Kevin Gilmore via PM when I asked him about the KGSSHV when I was thinking of upgrading my KGSS to a KGSSHV. 
 

  I don't think we will ever see independent measurements of the HV version of the SRM 717.  For now one can only can extrapolate from Stax measurements since the KGSS is a copy of Stax's SRM 717 design. 
 
Alternatively as Gurubhai pointed out Dr.Cavalli and Craig have real world measurements in place.  

 
Seriously...this thread is devolving big time. I see that many are out in full force to support their "team". Look I wanted the best SS Stax Amp I could find and I've done that and I thought I'd share that with exactly what I heard over several weeks. And I'm sorry it wasn't favourable to "your team", but that's what I heard. No need to politicize this again. 

 Please feel free to start your own thread then and do that there. 
 
The THD measurements I have are from the designer of the amp...are they verified by 3rd party? I don't know. Any of the builders of the KGSSHV can verify that I suppose...and there are many KGSSHV's out in the field. I pointed out something that was interesting with the Electra specs last night (and I don't know if they're independently measured as it's not listed on their website); nor are they for the LLMK1. I will follow up with it tomorrow and post what I hear back. But let's not take this stuff personally. Why would we? This is supposed to be a hobby and not a business for us. And Head-Fi is about the hobby.
 
But seriously everyone....chill. These are just my impressions of what I heard.

 

[Dubstep Girl]

Yeah sad to see ppl come and defend cavalli when u just posted impressions after owning both.

 

[sachu]

No supporting any team here. Just trying to help the objectivist in you that you mentioned earlier in getting the whole picture. After all you brought up the lack of measurements when they were all there in plain sight on the manufacturer's website for anyone to see.  
 
Yes the measurements on the LLmk2 is independently verified. You can contact the company that measured it to do your due diligence.
 
And if the measurements are avialable on another site as an image, am sure you can upload it here. Don't think HF frowns upon that. I would still believe independent measured specs over simulated specs from the 'designer'.
 
And since this is a thread about impressions here's mine.
 
Have consistently found a majority of amplifiers 'designed' by the same person that 'designed' your favored stat amp quite bland, flat and boring. This includes the Dynalo, the GS1, Gilmore lite, GS-X (not the mk2 version).  And I have found that other folks who agree with my ears feel exactly the same way.
 
Not that i have bad ears or you have bad ears. Its just what works for you. THere are plenty who will fall in either camp.
 
COming to electrostats, I haven't heard DIy version of the SRM 717 or its HV version. 
 
But I have heard the BHSE which is basically inspired by the Stax T2...the BHSE is not new circuitry nor involves Bob WIldar like analog wizardry. Thanks to STAX it started out its genesis from a good solid design. 
 
 
BHSE great with 007 to me. Easily an end game rig. 
BHSE with 009 NOT a good combo to me. 
Electra does equal justice. An excellent amp.
LLmk1 Fantastic with 009. Good with the 007. 
LLmk2, does equal justice to both headphones and on par with electra in pleasing my cochlear but different sounding.

 

[ultrabike]

  Seriously...this thread is devolving big time. I see that many are out in full force to support their "team". 

 
Peter, I haven't heard the KGSS and the KGSSHV, but I'm sure they are fantastic amps. I heard the BHSE with the 009 and while I felt it sounded very good, I liked the LLMK1 + 009 pairing better. There is no "team" here. I'm not with the "Stax" mafia, or the "Cavalli" surenos gang, or the "Craig" bloods. I just disagree with the assessment that the LLMK1 + 009 sucks.
 
So far I've seen a (removed) review by Spritzer saying that the LLMK1 rolls off at 80 Hz, and pretty much colors horribly the whole frequency spectrum. That is NOT my experience at all.
 
Then someone (not me) brings up ACTUAL measurements (NOT SPICE SIMULATION results). I say I agree, and ask for measurements on the KGSSHV, and all I get is ... they are "there". I searched "there" and have not seen even a THD number, let alone FR plots, THD+N plots under different conditions, IMD... You said you'd like to see this before putting down your hard earned money... Well?

 

[purrin]

   
Or because they'd rather not. 

 Stax only at 100Vrms, but the Electra is specified at 300Vrms as well. Why not run the full gambit and stop at 300Vrms?
 
The KGSSHV numbers are out there...you just have to look. 

 
FYI:
 
 
RE: Electra specs

Craig Ulthus
Sun 9/22/2013 8:18 AM
Marv

100VRMS is where the sensitivity of ES headphones are rated (SR009 is 101dB / 100VRMS 1 kHz) and my distortion analyzer only goes to 300  Volts.  

Sent from Windows Mail
 
 
I believe a huge reason why we don't see many distortion numbers from the stat amps (there are none on Headamp.com for the BHSE) is because of the specialized equipment (or at least more effort) required to take such readings. If someone is more knowledgeable in these matters, feel free to correct me.
 
I'm sure the SR-009 would break at a sustained 500VRMS, well after your eardrums exploded at 100VRMS if those STAX provided sensitivity figures are correct.

 

[MacedonianHero]

   
Peter, I haven't heard the KGSS and the KGSSHV, but I'm sure they are fantastic amps. I heard the BHSE with the 009 and while I felt it sounded very good, I liked the LLMK1 + 009 pairing better. There is no "team" here. I'm not with the "Stax" mafia, or the "Cavalli" surenos gang, or the "Craig" bloods. I just disagree with the assessment that the LLMK1 + 009 sucks.
 
So far I've seen a (removed) review by Spritzer saying that the LLMK1 rolls off at 80 Hz, and pretty much colors horribly the whole frequency spectrum. That is NOT my experience at all.
 
Then someone (not me) brings up ACTUAL measurements (NOT SPICE SIMULATION results). I say I agree, and ask for measurements on the KGSSHV, and all I get is ... they are "there". I searched "there" and have not seen even a THD number, let alone FR plots, THD+N plots under different conditions, IMD... You said you'd like to see this before putting down your hard earned money... Well?

 
Funny I haven't heard the BHSE yet, but the LLMK1 + 009 pairing was only marginally better than the SRM727II and quite a bit behind the KGSS and KGSSHV. FWIW, I happen to agree with spritzer's comments of the lack of any real sub-bass with the LLMK1 (as I posted on my review)...and I tried for almost a month to see what I could do to change my mind over that and the overall sound I was hearing, but to no avail and I'm out around $700 in that venture. 

 
And I've posted the KGSSHV comments above FYI (and I PM'd you the thread where to look for them). I'm not sure you understand the differences between the DIY business model (there isn't one as its all free open source

) vs. sellers who look to make a buck. Very different no? But as Marv pointed out, measuring stat amps isn't so easy I suppose. But hard doesn't = impossible and I'd encourage more of this IMO. Simulation results too are also welcome if that's what's on hand. You'd be surprised how accurate they can be. 

 

 

[MacedonianHero]

Yeah sad to see ppl come and defend cavalli when u just posted impressions after owning both.

 
Thanks! Amazing how personal people can take this...it's only audio after all.

 

[MacedonianHero]

  No supporting any team here. Just trying to help the objectivist in you that you mentioned earlier in getting the whole picture. After all you brought up the lack of measurements when they were all there in plain sight on the manufacturer's website for anyone to see.  
 
Yes the measurements on the LLmk2 is independently verified. You can contact the company that measured it to do your due diligence.
 
And if the measurements are avialable on another site as an image, am sure you can upload it here. Don't think HF frowns upon that. I would still believe independent measured specs over simulated specs from the 'designer'.
 
And since this is a thread about impressions here's mine.
 
Have consistently found a majority of amplifiers 'designed' by the same person that 'designed' your favored stat amp quite bland, flat and boring. This includes the Dynalo, the GS1, Gilmore lite, GS-X (not the mk2 version).  And I have found that other folks who agree with my ears feel exactly the same way.
 
Not that i have bad ears or you have bad ears. Its just what works for you. THere are plenty who will fall in either camp.
 
COming to electrostats, I haven't heard DIy version of the SRM 717 or its HV version. 
 
But I have heard the BHSE which is basically inspired by the Stax T2...the BHSE is not new circuitry nor involves Bob WIldar like analog wizardry. Thanks to STAX it started out its genesis from a good solid design. 
 
 
BHSE great with 007 to me. Easily an end game rig. 
BHSE with 009 NOT a good combo to me. 
Electra does equal justice. An excellent amp.
LLmk1 Fantastic with 009. Good with the 007. 
LLmk2, does equal justice to both headphones and on par with electra in pleasing my cochlear but different sounding.

 
Again, you're forgetting the purpose of this thread....MY COMPARISONS BETWEEN TWO AMPS THAT I BOUGHT WITH MY OWN $. So please stop rooting for your team regardless of what's said. And I never mentioned anything about Cavalli measurements...so please don't put words in my mouth and I can't agree that when it comes to Cavalli, you're hardly objective. 

 

[ultrabike]

   
Funny I haven't heard the BHSE yet, but the LLMK1 + 009 pairing was only marginally better than the SRM727II and quite a bit behind the KGSS and KGSSHV. FWIW, I happen to agree with spritzer's comments of the lack of any real sub-bass with the LLMK1 (as I posted on my review)...and I tried for almost a month to see what I could do to change my mind over that and the overall sound I was hearing, but to no avail.
 
And I've posted the KGSSHV comments above FYI and I'm not sure you understand the differences between the DIY business model (there isn't one as its all open source

) vs. sellers who look to make a buck. But as Marv pointed out, measuring stat amps isn't so easy I suppose. But hard doesn't = impossible and I'd encourage more of this IMO. Simulation results too are also welcome if that's what's on hand. You'd be surprised how accurate they can be. 

 
The BHSE is a fantastic amp. I know you might not be into tube amps these days, but you should definitively give it a listen.
 
There is nothing to change or discuss. You like your KGSSHV better than the LLMK1 and that is that. No wires-with-gain here. You just happen to enjoy this rig better than that and that's what it's all about.
 
As far as business models, I understand. Which is why it's sort of unfair to compare a DIY amp vs a commercial amp based on $ put down.
 
As far as simulations goes, believe me, you would be surprised how inaccurate they can be, and how often they need to be tweaked to match real world performance.