[jcx]

Let me get this straight – you have a highly reviewed DAC/Amp which you yourself concede is accurate and not clipping

You don’t like the sound coming out of the Headphone with said accurate system which has no problem driving the K701 – so you want to change the Amp??

Why wouldn’t anyone buy headphones that better matched your taste given that headphones vary hugely in sound while competently executed accurate amps can hardly be told apart?

For a easily heard difference you would have to buy an amp that is less accurate – and in the very personal an unknowable direction that you find “euphonic” at a particular time with a particular piece of music and at a precise sound level


The far easier approach would be to apply EQ to tailor the sound, easy to experiment with PC source and DSP plugins in winamp/foobar

If EQ gives you a perceptual improvement with the K701/Benchamark Dac1 then it should be possible to build a inline passive EQ that you plug in between the K701 and the amp, particularly as you say you do have excess headroom that you could afford to spend in the passive EQ:

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/reference_earphones.htm

considerably smaller than another amp, cheaper too - and transferable to any other low output impedance accurate amplifier with your K701

 

[twsmith]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif i don't know if the headroom desktop's are much better than the dac1. sort of a parallel move most likely. i have heard them, not a big fan here. i'd also want the psu. two boxes. no go. regardless of what some people might say, the dac1's amp is top notch. it just does not add coloration or warmth. that combined with the k701's is to harsh. if you want exacting precision then the dac1>k701 is a great combo. if you want fun/relaxing/forgiving of source it needs to warm up. that in fact is what most folks are really looking for. me included. i am listening for pleasure, not measurement. the dac1 will easily drive the k701's. i am on the 0db pads and i can't get past 10 oclock. which is also a problem since pots work best in their higher ranges. even according to benchmark. i need it on 0db for my speaker amp which is balanced. i had a fully modded(by myself) xcan v3. i loved it with the k701's. it is a lot bigger than what i specified though! at least the xcan is not an amp that really requires the xpsu. i want to stick with solid state if possible. the modded xcan was very finicky as are many tube amps. i see that pinkfloyd who pioneered the souped up xcan v3 mentioned here the heed is better. without tubes. anyone else have comments on heed>k701? i'd like more ideas on amps at 3"x6"x6" or under. solid state. one box. mass produced. i am looking for high quality. even though i am open to budget, my other qualifications are going to make this very limited picking i think. music_man

Since I just got a DAC1 and also have the "maxed-out" HR Desktop, I had the opportunity to compare the sound of my K701s with both amps. My impression is that the DAC1's amp is fully up to the task of driving the K701s. Furthermore, the K701s do sound fine with this amp, but there are clear differences between the DAC1 and Desktop - the DAC1 definitely sounds more detailed and resolving (though not harsh) than the Desktop and has slightly better dynamic range. Also if the recording itself has good soundstage depth and width, the DAC1 will portray this too. By comparison, I feel that the Desktop slightly smooths out the sound, giving it a slightly more mellow, warm sound. I'm on the fence as to which amp does the best job with soundstaging, although my impression is that both are generally quite good. Since the DAC1 and Desktop are in two completely different systems, I did not make the effort to feed the DAC1 into the Desktop's amp alone to see if the differences that I heard could be attributed mainly to the amps or the DACs themselves.

My dilemma is that while I love the amazing resolution and dynamic range provided by the DAC1, I would prefer a slightly warmer, more "musical" presentation - especially to make more pleasing the unfortunately large number of not-so-well recorded CDs that I have. I've ordered a GS-1 to pair with the DAC1, which I have every reason to believe will preserve all of the good qualities of the DAC1 but give me a slightly warmer sound overall. If I had to do it all over again, I probably would have gone for the DAC1 and GS-1 combo instead of the Desktop, although I must say that the Desktop does match well with the K701s. In fact, I still like the Desktop well enough to use it in an office system, since it takes up less space than the DAC1 and GS-1 units.

 

[music_man]

jcx, you are correct. where everyone is finding shortcomings with the dac1 amp. they and myself want a warmer sound. they consider an amp that provides a warmer exagerated sound to be the better amp.

in fact the dac1 is the better amp! actually, the dac1 is probably amongst the best amps out there. what people are really looking for is a lesser quality amp that exagerates the sound but is a "better sounding" amp!

the dac1 is one of the technically most superior most accurate devices ever made at any price. you would have to spend $20,000 to best it. just ask stereophile. the problem is i want the "better sounding amp" even though in fact it is not technically superior. it is technically inferior. let's at least get that straight. however, paper is not ears!

it does not matter if a ferrari goes 220mph. if i am 6' 5' it is just not what i am looking for lol.

i found an easier and better answer to this issue.
balanced 650's! i don't need a different amp after all

i do miss the k701's sitting on the table. i think i will balance them again. they have a hole in them beging for a cable.

now i have the most accurate amp but can get a warmer mellow sound. the k701's are just way to precise with the dac1. yes, that means a technically superior setup. it is also not pleasent to listen to,imo. it is "too" revealing. i can hear musicians inhaling while they sing. i cannot hear that on anything else. this is also true with the 650's but it warms things up. you really cannot find a better amp than the dac1 (on paper). why not build your home with the solid foundation? add what you wish to make it your own by using different headphones. this does not mean run out and buy the dac1. i am saying that if you alrady have it you really shouln't be looking at different amps. go the different headphone route if you are not happy. it works too good with the k701's actually. thats not a bad thing and does not make other amps better. it simply makes them "sound better to you"

i am a dac1 convert now. remeber when i hated this thing?

music_man

 

[music_man]

i miss the k701.

i would consider the rsa hr-2. not mass produced. two boxes. rsa is highly regarded, ok. boxes have long umbilical, ok.

i am not sure though.
from the limited reliable info i can get from search here: it will give me the warmth i am looking for in a ss amp. however, it will not bring out every last detail and wart like the dac1 amp.

anyone care to comment?

thanks,
music_man

 

[jcx]

You're still making a logical error - you really want a different sound from your K701 - a "warmer sound"

to get a "warmer sound" with a "warmer amp", the new amp has to do something different to the signal that your highly accurate low output impedance DAC1 amp doesn't do

the "warmer amp" gives a different voltage signal at the headphone terminals, but the headphone really doesn't care why the signal it sees is different - so it should be possible to change the signal either before or after the accurate amp to give your desired "warmer sound" with the K701

since you have access to real production tools why not seriously consider tweaking the frequency response of the signal going to the K701 with a custom EQ?

as I pointed out it is really easy to test with EQ of the signal before the amp, once you've found your curve then building a inline hardware EQ for the K701 that changes the signal after the accurate amp gives you your "warm sound" - and it can travel with the K701 from amp - to amp

(a few sections of parametric EQ is easier to map to low parts count passive eq than a graphic EQ)

 

[s.a.b.]

I drive both the K701s and DT990s with the DAC1.

If you "like" the sound of the 701s but want what I'll describe (for lack of other words) more "body" and "focus", you may want to listen to DT990s with the DAC1.

I'd describe both phones with the DAC1 as being lively but not harsh, at least with the recordings I listen to (60s rock/folk, blue note jazz, classical).

Cheers.

 

[quattro98]

I'm with JCX on trying some tone shaping. You might also want to experiment with crossfeed.

 

[music_man]

jcx is right.

you are correct in everything you said. i work daily with state of the art audio recording equiment. what i want does not exist regardless of what some people may think. a warm amp changes the sound. it is technically impossible for a warm/full/lush sounding amp to have the analytical detail and precision of the dac1. regardless of who begs to differ. the people that do beg to differ are hobbyists not engineers. flame suit on.

how many people realise how many grammy/platinum cd's have been recorded or mastered with dac1's in the chain? you are listening to them whether you like them or not lol.

before i read jcx' second post today. i went ahead and mapped out a 5 band parametric eq and notch filter in software. i then built it in hardware using audio quality components. i retained much of the ability to hear every wart and blemish in the source but made it much more laid back darker and relaxing.

this just goes to show what warmer amps are doing. i did lose some of the accuracy of the dac1 doing this. however, i tailered it to my liking. it is the right balance for me. this might be the best thing i have heard so far with the k701. i have heard most amps at all price ranges.

this is the right idea. you start with a proven foundation and design your architecture above it. amps that are just warm and lack some accuracy cannot be changed. the solid foundation can be tweaked any way you like it. you have a base from which to work. many audiophiles shun eq. i do not. almost all recordings are eq'd.

there are two very important things the dac1 has going for it that professionals will understand. a black background and the ability to clearly hear reverb. whether artificial or room borne. these are the parameter's used to judge the neutrality of a component. you will find this more in pro-audio components then in home components. most audiophiles will trade neutrality for fun or warmth/fullness.

this way i can always undo what i have done. or switch headphones or eq modules. this is great.

thanks for the idea jcx.

music_man

 

[amb]

Just thought I'd throw a bit of reality into this thread. The DAC1's internal headphone amp is NE5532 opamps driving BUF634 output buffers. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing exotic either.

 

[music_man]

indeed. there is more to the circuit besides what opamp and buffer are used. that aside, the dac1 amp is towards the neutral side of the fence. i know people will argue. it is not completely neutral. that is not possible in reality. it was designed with neutrality in mind. it does an adequate job in that respect. it is highly resolving and analytical of the source. as intended by it's designers.

indeed. it is not exotic. exotic amps are all going to take the sound in one direction or another. what makes them all "exotic" is that very fact. if they all sounded about the same, leaning towards neutral they would not be exotic. the most neutral amps tend to be simple designs using the least amount of parts. none of them exotic. for instance, a mid end tube amp tends to be more "exotic" than the highest end solid state amps. the tube amp being exotic as it is adds coloration of one sort or another. that coloration is found by most to be desireable. engineers using a product such as the dac1 are certainly not looking for that coloration.

the dac1 amp is by no means a poor quality amp. it simply adds very little coloration. it is not most peoples taste. most people look towards exotic amps or at least ones that "tailor" the sound to their liking in some respect. in that regard there are a myriad of choices available.

the dac1 as a whole is designed as a tool to hear what has been/is being recorded for an engineer. therefore it is not designed to add a distinct coloration to the sound. in fact, as little as possible was the goal. again, by no means poor quality. simply not most peoples taste.

one fact that remains is that it is not technically possible for an amp to be as analytical and resolving as the dac1 while adding warmth/fullness and exagerated soundstage. the latter is what most people consider the attributes of high quality amplification. this is due to the fact that most people are casual listeners and not critical listeners. to the untrained ear a device such as the dac1 becomes harsh and fatiguing. this is what is constantly mentioned herein. the dac1 is doing it's job as the designers intended. it is not at fault in that respect. regardless as to whether audiophiles "like" it. engineers "use" it. the dac1 is "engineered" not "designed". it is an industrial tool. if it does not suit the homestead, why complain?

yes, i am defending the dac1. i do not care for it as used in casual listening either. i am tired of it being bashed around here. it works as intended. the people that complain are the ones that purchase a ferrari and are upset about the gas consumption.

music_man

 

[Asr]

No offense but what's with your "mass produced" criteria? There are barely any headphone amps that are mass-produced, you're just setting yourself for failure with that criteria on your list. And do you have a budget?

Your goal of a solid-state with a tubey sound is also contradictory IMO. True there are some solid-states that don't sound very solid-statey, but genuine tubey, forget about it, maybe you should just go for a hybrid. The Little Dot Micro-Tube and TTVJ Millett Hybrid probably easily fit your size criteria.

 

[granodemostasa]

well, if you made up your mind before asking... If you want an amp that is going to sound better than the internal headphone amp of the Dac-1, the Gilmore lite is it. Class A discrete output (no opamps), fast, detailed, and better performing than the amp in the Dac-1 (I've had a benchmark in my system, so i know what I'm saying, this isn't some blind guess).

If you don't want any warmth, then we won't push it on you.

 

[music_man]

the reason i wanted mass produced is so i can walk into a store with money and walk out with a product. call me impatient.

back to the presonus cs. i will bet that if i blindfold anyone and tell them they are going to be listening to a single power they will not question it. that is amazing actually. it is the only ss amp i have ever heard that is that tubey.
it comes at the usual expense of tubes though. it is not nearly as resolving and analytical as the dac1.

where most people fail with the presonus cs is they think it is an inexpensive option. it is in fact way more expensive than a dac1 and amp to make it work properly. the dac1 works fine with a $50 dvd player and $5 cable.

it all depends on the jitter. the dac1 is immune to it. the cs is completley the opposite. i have had no good results with the cs with less than $5,000 cdp/transports. once you go that route it gets intresting. you also require robust power conditioning or swapping all the parts in the power supply. i went the latter route.

i am back to the modded cs, mark levinson transport and vallhalla s/pdif cable.
it is pleasing to me. it has good detail, lots of shimmer and sparkle. warmth in abundance. it is just not as resolving as the dac1. in fact hardly any high end amps are anyways. especially tubes. it sounds like tubes to me.

it also just so happens to meet my space requirements. which is why i originally implemented it. ml is on the table and cs is on the floor in a 2u shockmount. the dac1 remains running my compact loudspeaker system.

the dac1 needs to be mated to warmer speakers/headphones for pleasing results imo. not the k701's. it is the reverse with a properly fed cs.

back to where i started and happy. i made a mistake by plugging the k701's into the dac1 imo. on the other hand the dac1> hd650's(especially balanced) is great.

i will still aquire more amps in the future. i am content at the moment.

music_man

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by amb /img/forum/go_quote.gif Just thought I'd throw a bit of reality into this thread. The DAC1's internal headphone amp is NE5532 opamps driving BUF634 output buffers. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing exotic either.

sounds like a poor man's version of Pimeta

which is a poor man's version of PPA...

...DAC1 must be really poor

 

[chesebert]

Quote:

Originally Posted by music_man /img/forum/go_quote.gif the reason i wanted mass produced is so i can walk into a store with money and walk out with a product. call me impatient. back to the presonus cs. i will bet that if i blindfold anyone and tell them they are going to be listening to a single power they will not question it. that is amazing actually. it is the only ss amp i have ever heard that is that tubey. it comes at the usual expense of tubes though. it is not nearly as resolving and analytical as the dac1. where most people fail with the presonus cs is they think it is an inexpensive option. it is in fact way more expensive than a dac1 and amp to make it work properly. the dac1 works fine with a $50 dvd player and $5 cable. it all depends on the jitter. the dac1 is immune to it. the cs is completley the opposite. i have had no good results with the cs with less than $5,000 cdp/transports. once you go that route it gets intresting. you also require robust power conditioning or swapping all the parts in the power supply. i went the latter route. i am back to the modded cs, mark levinson transport and vallhalla s/pdif cable. it is pleasing to me. it has good detail, lots of shimmer and sparkle. warmth in abundance. it is just not as resolving as the dac1. in fact hardly any high end amps are anyways. especially tubes. it sounds like tubes to me. it also just so happens to meet my space requirements. which is why i originally implemented it. ml is on the table and cs is on the floor in a 2u shockmount. the dac1 remains running my compact loudspeaker system. the dac1 needs to be mated to warmer speakers/headphones for pleasing results imo. not the k701's. it is the reverse with a properly fed cs. back to where i started and happy. i made a mistake by plugging the k701's into the dac1 imo. on the other hand the dac1> hd650's(especially balanced) is great. i will still aquire more amps in the future. i am content at the moment. music_man

CS headamp is hardly special, but I really don't consider any headamp special under $800. DAC section is something else though. the amp section is passable in my book, ultimately lack completely transparency.