[Viverr]

Well, with all of the Vinyl talk going around, I figured that this would be an excellent time to ask this question

Problem: Clicks and Pops and all sorts of contaminant related crap coming through the headphones from a vinyl source. Especially in long, lamenting solo guitar passages (for example, Opeth - Harlequin Forests from Ghost Reveries). Love the sound of vinyl for this sort of thing!

I've made sure already that it's not a physical deformity somewhere on the LP by trying a large amount of records over the last few days. Thing is, the records are clean enough for the lower resolution of my JBL 4408A's. I hear far less of the popping and clinking through the speakers than I do through the HD650's. I expected that actually. The thing is, I can't seem to get these things clean enough! Atleast, clean enough to get rid of, say, the 50% I thought was surface dirt and crud. Bear in mind, I don't have a dedicated washer, but I've given the record a good once-over with vinylZyme (spelling?) and a very soft shami cloth on a spare platter I've got, then a once-over before playing with a Decca 2x2, carbon-fibre bristles first. I've got the records in new sleeves as well, so I can rule out old-sleeve crud... What in the world am I missing? A wet brush? Maybe the Decca's not cutting it? Suggestions always appreciated!

-V

 

[P+D-MI]

Not a vinyl guy, but it sounds like it could be static build up. Maybe try an anti-static device of some sort.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viverr The thing is, I can't seem to get these things clean enough! Atleast, clean enough to get rid of, say, the 50% I thought was surface dirt and crud. Bear in mind, I don't have a dedicated washer, but I've given the record a good once-over with vinylZyme (spelling?) and a very soft shami cloth on a spare platter I've got, then a once-over before playing with a Decca 2x2, carbon-fibre bristles first. I've got the records in new sleeves as well, so I can rule out old-sleeve crud... What in the world am I missing?

It sounds like either your records are not in very good condition to start with or you are simply making matters worse by cleaning without the proper tools.

Cleaning records is pretty difficult at the best of times with all the top kit but doing it by half measures can give very mixed results often worse than you started out with.

Unless your records are 2nd hand from ebay or some flea market then the Decca brush should be fine. It's just designed to remove dust and carbon fibre needs to be used dry not wet.

If you are trying to resurrect records in what dealers call "good" which really should be "bad" condition then you need a vacuum machine I think. If you can't afford one then maybe get something like the orbitrac, but I have never personally had any really satisfactory results by any manual method by comparison with a vacuum machine.

Vinylzyme is pretty potent stuff to be using without a vacuum cleaner. Even diluted it takes a while to get it off. Get a proper brush like the one made by Nitty Gritty and don't rub too hard! Use purified water from a chemist to clean the records and the brush thoroughly as cleaning residues can cause as much noise as anything else.

Also get a cleaner for you stylus as this will collect most of the gunk from your records and most likely be covered in crap. You need a 30x magnifying glass. The basic cleaners like the AM one, which is sold under many differenty names, consist of a fine mascarra brush and isoproyl alcohol. Be very careful not to get it inside the stylus body as it can damage the cantilever supsension.

Steve Hoffman's forums have some good info on cleaning in general.

 

[Graham Maynard]

You say there is a notable difference between LS and phones.

If the LS system is fine then do you have some kind of a phone system distortion due to the higher frequency output caused by particles causing a non-linear response ? (Transient distortion ?)

Either the LSs are deaf to this noise or you might have to shape the AF response to make the clicks more acceptable via phones, options that 'old fashioned' pre-amps provided, but which have disappeared because they are not needed with 'CD/tuner only' gear.

 

[hciman77]

Vinyl is just noisy - sorry, this was especially a problem for me during quiet passages of classical music and it used to drive me up the wall even listening on moderate speakers, had I been a headphone listener then I would have been spitting teeth. Headphones are much much more revealing. The other problem is that you are now so sensitized to the noise that you will be listening for it (consciously or unconsciously) and of corse if you listen for it you will hear it . Answer: have a couple of beers beforehand and just relax and enjoy Vinyl's special qualities.

 

[Ori]

The solvent would disolve the thin layer of dirt, then it will all be pushed down to the bottom of the groove and solidify into a thick layer.

You get the point, I hope...

 

[Garbz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by hciman77 Headphones are much much more revealing.

Compared to what speakers. I tell you now I find the new B&W 800D speakers more revieling then any HD650s and good amps I've tried

Pity about the cost though.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Garbz Compared to what speakers. .

Fair point, I should not make such blanket statements based only on my own experience and heresay. I meant revealing in terms of showing up low level noise rather than in the audiophile sense and assuming items of the same price.

 

[Viverr]

There are some excellent suggestions in here. Thanks guys!

For the record (pun intended) the records are a mixture of new and previously used. Some in better condition than others, but the sounds are not from any major scratches.

Finding a purpose-build wet brush soulds like an excellent idea. So does re-washing with distilled water. How distilled, though? Double? Triple? I would assume that it's a great idea to use a separate wet brush for each application (cleaner and then water). Unfortunately, a vaccuum cleaner is a bit out of the budget. I don't think that the amount of records I own can justify that kind of cost.

Quote:

Steve Hoffman's forums have some good info on cleaning in general.

I'm afraid I've never come across the place. Would anyone have a link?

Sounds to me like the general consensus is A: Buy a cleaner. or B:
Apply cleaner, wait, scrub (first brush).
Apply water, spread, scrub (second brush) ((2x application?))
Dry
Static Brush
Decca brush (if needed)

Clean the stylus for extra points.

Although, for the win:
Quote:

Answer: have a couple of beers beforehand and just relax and enjoy Vinyl's special qualities.

Thanks again!

-V

 

[Garbz]

Lol. Single distilled water would do for the rinseing. Personally I don't use it. I mix vinega with distilled water as recently recomended by bigshot, but for the rinse I just use the filtered tap water. (we have one of thoes triple filtering units).

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viverr Finding a purpose-build wet brush soulds like an excellent idea. So does re-washing with distilled water. How distilled, though? Double? Triple? I would assume that it's a great idea to use a separate wet brush for each application (cleaner and then water). Unfortunately, a vaccuum cleaner is a bit out of the budget. I don't think that the amount of records I own can justify that kind of cost.

Nitty Gritty machines start for a couple of hundred dollars so that's 10-20 new records, ( or 100 2nd hand ones! ) so in the long run I think it's worthwhile. Linn used to say that you should only let your stylus clean the records but when you have 2nd hand records covered in gunk your stylus wont last long!

Separate brushes are definitely a good idea to prevent contaminating a surface you have just cleaned and just use the purest water you can get. Purified water from a chemist is a few dollars for a gallon so it's not exactly going to break the bank.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viverr I'm afraid I've never come across the place. Would anyone have a link?

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viverr Sounds to me like the general consensus is A: Buy a cleaner. or B: Apply cleaner, wait, scrub (first brush). Apply water, spread, scrub (second brush) ((2x application?)) Dry Static Brush Decca brush (if needed)

The static brush and Decca brush should be used on new records or previously cleaned ones. You shouldn't need to remove surface dust after you have just wet cleaned? they are for two different occasions basically.

 

[Graham Maynard]

No mention of alcohol ?

I have a Keith Monks record cleaning machine.

The cleaning mixture is 50/50 pure water/pure alcohol.
Applied thru a wide but very fine brush to the rotating record.
Then vacuum cleaned away.

If you can't get alcohol, the nearest thing I can think of would be Vodka.

Could be applied to the record on an old turntable using a large head make-up brush; eg L'Oreal.

Without vacuum drying, next best would be rinsing and natural drying, but keeping the label dry would not be easy.

The tiniest spec of dust can create a higher frequency click than groove modulation. Is your cartridge sufficiently capacitivly loaded to limit the high frequency energy ? If moving magnet, you could try a few more feet of coax between cartridge and pre-amp.

Cheers ...... Graham.

 

[Garbz]

There was a very long thread about alcohol usage for record cleaning here last year. The forum was pretty divided if it's bad or good. I only changed to white vinega 2 weeks ago and found it to be jsut as good, providing you rinse.

In the end I think it's up to personal beliefs. Some here sware alcohol leeches moisture from vinyl. But most cleaning products use it.

 

[Michael G.]

Is vinyl too noisy for ultra hi-rez headphones? Well, I own a very hi-rez AKG K-1000' system, and I can tell you that the anwer is: "No... Yes... Sometimes..!" Vacuum cleaning is must. Even the best pressings on new, unplayed virgin vinyl can be noisy due to the presence of mold release - until they are cleaned on a wet, vacuum RCM system that is... After a thorough cleaning, the very best vinyl pressings will give you virtually noiseless playback. But, let's not forget that some of the best music - music not to be missed - is not always pressed on the best vinyl. Certain labels used inferior vinyl formulations that are inherently noisy, and no matter how well you clean them these records will have noise issues. And, that's if the vinyl is brand new, clean, and pristine - not to mention the used and worn examples you might be more likely to find on the vinyl market! If you restrict your record collection to only those pressings that are absolutely quiet, you will be missing out on a lot of great music. The truth is that even if you can afford truly mint vinyl, you must be able to tolerate some noise (at least some of the time). The format is not for everyone. But, remember that live performances are rarely (or never) heard against the "black background of silence" that some audiophiles seem to worship and adore. If you can handle live music, then you should be able to handle vinyl playback as well!

 

[Viverr]

memepool: Thanks for the link. The "if needed" should have been "as needed," I suspect, regarding the previous comments on brushes. I understand what you're saying, and thanks.

Graham:
Quote:

No mention of alcohol?

No in the discussion at the moment, but plenty online. Same with dish soap, various other detergents, vinegar, etc. Not a whole lot of data on how effective each one is, though. Vodka record wash, eh?

Quote:

The tiniest spec of dust can create a higher frequency click than groove modulation. Is your cartridge sufficiently capacitivly loaded to limit the high frequency energy ? If moving magnet, you could try a few more feet of coax between cartridge and pre-amp.

You'll have to help me understand this one, I'm afraid. I thought that the cartridge load was determined by the preamp (which is variable, but not at the levels you'd see from cable), not the (possibly variable) Pf you'd see from the cable?

Michael:
Quote:

If you restrict your record collection to only those pressings that are absolutely quiet, you will be missing out on a lot of great music.

No argument there. Nothing beats out Charlie Daniels - Uneasy Rider on a fourth-hand disc from the mid-80's, but the level of noise I'm hearing here is way beyond the level of worrying about what sort of vinyl formulation its pressed on.

A cleaning system is starting to sound pretty darn good. See what happens when you're born at the end of the vinyl era? Need to catch up fast! Backwards!

Thanks once again...

-V