[zschwartz]

Hi all, 


 


I listen to lots of music, especially classical and jazz. I bought myself ATH-M50s in college and have loved them since. I felt that I was missing out on real sound though because I was aware of the stigma that M50's are the most entry level you can get among enthusiasts.


 


I bought myself the Sennheisser HD598's last week due to their excellent reputation with soundstage. I go to many live performances at the New York Philharmonic and really wished I could approximate that live sound at home. Getting that sound with speakers is just too expensive at this stage in my life.


 


To make a long story short, I plugged the HD598's into my Denon AVR-2308 speaker amp and was shocked at how far away and masked the sound was compared to the M50's. It was almost as if I was hearing the orchestra behind the door of the auditorium. 


 


I've been comparing back to back the M50's to the HD598's and found that yes, the M50 sound is less rich, more confined, too bright. But I found the HD598 sound very murky. You cannot make out the individual instruments in the string section, the tympani sounds like the boom of a Bass drum, not like the mix of low/high frequency sounds you should get from a real tympani. Although it is a more spacious sound, you cannot make out the ever so slight reverb of the hall's acoustics. The best analogy is like the M50 is drinking your espresso black, and the HD598 is like pouring too much milk in your espresso so you can't taste the coffee. As for Top 40 music, the HD598 was flat out boring compared to M50s, so if I keep them they will be used only for Classical/Jazz.


 


I can't tell if my "palate" just isn't developed enough or the HD598's really don't live up to their name. 


 


Considering sending back the HD598 to amazon and ordering Beyer DT880 250 Ohms or AKQ Q701. I will be using those with my speaker amplifier as well as plugging it directly into my iPhone from time to time. I don't want any headphones over $180, or any headphones requiring a headphone amp to use with iPhone. Most of the time it will be plugged into my speaker amplifier.


 


Looking forward to input, especially from those who listen classical/jazz majority of the time! 

 

[Me x3]

  Hi all, 
 
I listen to lots of music, especially classical and jazz. I bought myself ATH-M50s in college and have loved them since. I felt that I was missing out on real sound though because I was aware of the stigma that M50's are the most entry level you can get among enthusiasts.
 
I bought myself the Sennheisser HD598's last week due to their excellent reputation with soundstage. I go to many live performances at the New York Philharmonic and really wished I could approximate that live sound at home. Getting that sound with speakers is just too expensive at this stage in my life.
 
To make a long story short, I plugged the HD598's into my Denon AVR-2208 speaker amp and was shocked at how far away and masked the sound was compared to the M50's. It was almost as if I was hearing the orchestra behind the door of the auditorium. 
 
I've been comparing back to back the M50's to the HD598's and found that yes, the M50 sound is less rich, more confined, too bright. But I found the HD598 sound very murky. You cannot make out the individual instruments in the string section, the tympani sounds like the boom of a Bass drum, not like the mix of low/high frequency sounds you should get from a real tympani. Although it is a more spacious sound, you cannot make out the ever so slight reverb of the hall's acoustics. The best analogy is like the M50 is drinking your espresso black, and the HD598 is like pouring too much milk in your espresso so you can't taste the coffee. As for Top 40 music, the HD598 was flat out boring compared to M50s, so if I keep them they will be used only for Classical/Jazz.
 
I can't tell if my "palate" just isn't developed enough or the HD598's really don't live up to their name. 
 
Considering sending back the HD598 to amazon and ordering Beyer DT880 250 Ohms. I will be using those with my speaker amplifier as well as plugging it directly into my iPhone from time to time. I don't want any headphones over $180, or any headphones requiring a headphone amp to use with iPhone. Most of the time it will be plugged into my speaker amplifier.
 
Looking forward to input, especially from those who listen classical/jazz majority of the time! 

Well DT880 is much better than HD598 for quality recordings, and it's also a better match for a speaker amp.
If you want something that's DT880-like but more punchy in the bass (and also brighter) check DT990.
I guess you'll enjoy both more than HD598.
 
Keep in mind DT880 is a tad too flat in the bass, and DT990 is overly bright for some recordings.
 
AKG K702 could serve you very well for classical music and jazz but it needs a quality dedicated headphone amplifier to show its goods in my experience.
 
There's always a trade off when picking a headphone but we are talking about quality revealing headphones here, if that's what you want I guess you'll enjoy any of these.
 
HD598 is better suited for modern / less than ideal recordings in my view.
For people wanting a softer and more laid back presentation.

 

[PurpleAngel]

Can't find any listing on a Denon AVR-2208?
 
Most stereo amplifier/receivers headphone jacks have a high impedance, which means headphone with lower impedance (Ohm), do not work well with them.
Have you tried the HD598 (reguler, SC or CS model) plugged into your iPhone and see how they sound?
 
The 250-Ohm DT880 should sound good plugged into the Denon, but the iPhone's amplifer may not be strong enough to drive them.

 

[LightDarkSonic]

Have both HD 598 and really think it's weird the way you described it, it is a little warm but nowhere near an HD 600, also it has a very good treble, not the most detailed but really smooth and forgiving, also I second PurpleAngel try it on another source, it can sound pretty good on portable daps just don't expect the bass to perform at its best. Have the DT 880 and being honest I would go crazy having it as my only truted phones, it's not like they aren't good but more so that they are unforgiving, also they can be somewhat picky on amp, like to use mine with a cheap Bravo Ocean (80$) that gives it a little extra musicality

Enviado de meu Moto G (4) usando Tapatalk

 

[zschwartz]

When you say DT880 is unforgiving, isn't that a good thing? My goal is for the headphone to reproduce the sound I would have heard from the orchestra. Where it's spacious, but nonetheless detailed.
 
I felt that the HD598 was coloring the sound too warm and too distance, to the point where I couldn't differentiate the instruments as well as I could have with the really bright M50. Edit: Just listened to great quality opera recording comparing the two and again the HD598 provide more space at the cost of clarity. The orchestra in the background was more blended together, whereas the M50 was tiring on the ears, but allowed you to differentiate detail.
 
Will the DT880's or AKG Q701 solve these problems? 
 
Also, regarding the above post about DT880 250 ohm not performing with iPhone, InnerFidelity's comparison of the 3 different version seems to say it would work okay w/o an amp... I would be betting my decision solely based on that article. Not sure if that's wise.(article name: "A Comparison of Beyerdynamic DT 880 32 ohm, DT 880 250 ohm, and DT 880 600 ohm Headphones")

 

[zschwartz]

So for any others with this same question who are curious to hear people's opinions, I ordered the Beyer DT880 250ohm and have been testing it all day. Please take this all with several grains of salt - I like my music very vivid as if the live instruments are there in front of you, also I do not have a headphone amp so I used a mix of my floor speaker amp, iPhone, and computer to compare sound quality. For many people that might be the more relevant setup, so this isn't a useless point. Finally, the HD598 and DT880 were broken in for maybe 10 hours each, while the M50's I've been using for several years.

For anyone who wants honest sounding classical music I would say DT880 are very good. The have a larger soundstage and smoother treble version than the M50's. M50's are very detailed with treble slightly exaggerated (but definitely not enough a reason alone to replace the headphones if you already have them). DT880 are like sitting at the middle row of orchestra seats. HD598 is like sitting in the back row of the top balcony, possibly behind the curtain before you walk into the hall. I know I am going to take TONS of flack from the HD598 fans about the veil not existing, but don't hate me I am just describing what I hear. Before I even knew about "the veil" I turned to my wife and said "I can't believe it, these sound like I am outside the concert hall."

Due to the high resistance, the DT880's are significantly quieter than the M50's with an iPhone w/o an amp; about 50%-60% of the max volume you can get with the M50's w/o amplification. Not to the point where you can't listen to the music, but enough to mention that it is a significant difference.

All I can say is that after buying both the Senn HD598 and Beyer DT880 (250ohm), I am absolutely stunned at how great the ATH-M50's put up with the more reputable competition. Whoever says that M50's have no soundstage is arguably very wrong! The sound is not as spacious as with the HD598 or DT880, but because they are a "sharp" (read: detailed) headphone, you get very good imagery of the stage for a closed headphone. You can hear the location and the reverb of the instruments/voices in the concert hall. I was originally sure that the HD598 and DT880 would blow them out of the water... and they didn't. In fact, for pop / rock / top 40's I think I would say M50s ~ DT880 >>> HD598. The M50's have a exciting sound to them, which for music that doesn't need imagery and detail they bring lots emotion and power out of the music.

For classical music, which is my primary reason for buying new headphones, DT880 wins. They sound more spacious, that live sound is reproduced really well. But, it wins by too thin a margin to justify spending another $150 if you already own the M50's and don't plan on spending even more dough on amplification. It's just too narrow a difference for that much money. I will decide this week whether I am keeping the DT880s. Also, based on InnerFidelity the M50x is even better than the M50, which would be even less a reason to drop another $150+ if you already own M50x.

In fact, the M50 doesn't need amplification which saves money and hassle of caring an amp around, they work with your iPhone output far better than the DT880 250ohm with its high resistance, and more convenient than HD598's with their gigantic 6.35 to 3.5mm jack adapter. They are shockingly versatile between pop/rock/top 40's/classical/jazz.

Bottom line, if you already own M50 (or especially the M50x), and if $150 for 2nd headphones plus more money for an amp is not pocket change for you, then I would stay with what you have! You got really lucky with M50's being your first ones! They are fantastic.

If you don't have good headphones yet and you listen to classical music, then I would say DT880 is especially great. They are also very good for other genres. They are usable with iPhone and computer, but if you like your music higher than 50%-60% of max volume then you won't be happy without an amp.

If you want to spend no more than $150 on the whole headphone experience, don't want to worry about an amp, you like strong clean bass in your music, you listen to Top 40/Rock/Pop/Hip-hop then without a doubt the M50 are for you. I caught them for $90 several years back on Amazon!

 

[Kodhifi]

There is a period of adjustment when listening to a headphone with a vastly different tuning or construction. It can make us dislike our initial impression, but later we get used to the differences and find we like it more than other headphones in our collection. Our perception of the voicing in terms of bass, midrange, and treble can change based upon what we were listening to. It's like judging how hot or cold your bath water is. When you first get in, it may seem far too hot for comfort, but you get used to it and if you were to then get in a warm bath, it might seem cold by comparison. 
 
The M50's are voiced similarly to the Sennheiser HD650. I don't mean to say they sound the same, but the proportions of bass, to treble, to midrange, are following a similar concept. I have never heard the 598's so I can't comment on their sound but the DT880 is a very flat headphone and far flatter and more transparent than the HD650 or M50. 
 
If I were to listen to the M50 for awhile, and then switch over to the 880 I would initially find them thin and hollow with no bass impact. However once my ear got used to the difference in sound, I would find the bass is there, just not pushed forward, and I would find the treble while not enhanced, extends far up into ultrasonics and without any hint of grain, sibilance, or harshness. I would also begin to pick out the additional detail they can resolve over the M50 in terms of separation. For instance imagine 2 guitars in a song playing together it can be hard to hear what each one is doing since they occupy similar frequencies, and they can drown each other out. A more resolving headphone would still be able to separate the two guitars so that you can clearly hear each one if you concentrate on it. This is something the 880 does better than the M50. There is also the sound stage, or how well the instruments surround the listener and occupy the listening space. A closed soundstage might sound like an orchestra crammed into an elevator, where a better sound stage might sound like the same instruments being played in a symphony hall surrounding the listener. The ability to clearly separate the instruments in a stereo image also helps with resolution and being able to discern detail in multi-track recordings. 
 
The M50 on the other hand is voiced for a fun and exciting sound. The bass is pushed forward in the voicing almost to the point that it dominates the mids. The mids are slightly recessed compared to bass and treble forming a V type EQ curve or scooped sound. This makes music sound exciting but it's not particularly accurate. When you have a tonally neutral headphone, you leave it up to the artist and recording engineer. If they intended a song to pop and sound dazzling, they will record it as such, and a neutral headphone would then accurately sound poppy and snappy. If on the other hand they intended for a dry arrangement with rolled off bass, and a warm mid range, a neutral headphone can reproduce that as well. You get what was intended.Now if you used the M50, it is already enhancing bass and treble, so if the recording also has high bass and treble, you are doubling up and it can sound over bloated and harsh with too much bass and too much sibilance and bite. And listening to that rolled off bass song you won't get the warm mid range sound they intended because the M50 would push the bass and treble forward and scoop the midrange. 
 
 
To put it another way, what makes a DT880 better than an M50 isn't just bass or treble or mids, it's it's ability to transform to suit any kind of music you play through it and you get to hear what the artist intended. They are neutral. They also resolve additional detail and more clearly separate the instruments allowing your ear to roam through a song and pick out little bits and pieces of detail that might be lost in a less resolving headphone. 
 
 
And really this is what the audiophile journey is all about. What makes a $1000 HD800 'better' than a $300 HD650 isn't some kind of "even better bass, even better midrange, even better treble". That's not what you're paying for and that's not what makes people like the HD800. If your goal in headphones is a dynamic and fun sound with kicking bass, and an easy to listen to mid range and crisp treble, the good news is you can have that for $100 with many good entry level headphones. If on the other hand your goal is to pull layers of cotton out of your ears and hear every subtle nuance in a piece of music you've heard 1000 times, and yet each time you listen you can hear something new, and you are willing to give up some bass, and some fun, in order to get a more flexible sound, and you are willing to put up with more strident treble in order to hear every harmonic overtone, then that is where the higher end models start coming into their own. They are less 'exciting' but open up new worlds of sound. 
 
 
The DT880 should be a dream come true for a classical music lover as that is one of the genre's they excel at. Jazz lovers may find the bass a little lacking without EQing them though. I find the 990 better for jazz music, and of course the HD650 is a great all arounder for any genre of music. 

 

[zschwartz]

Thanks Kodhifi for the great input! Couldn't agree more with you - the DT880 really is phenomenal. Very even, with crystal clear separation. It is fantastic for classical.

My goal was to help an entry-level enthusiast make an informed decision on whether they need the DT880 if they already own the M50s. I would venture to say that someone who doesn't have the extra $150-$250 laying around, that the M50/M50x serves well for Pop/Rock/Top 40, far beyond my expectations having tested all 3. There are the added downsides to DT880, such as requiring an amp for portable use at volumes above 50%. But if you have the cash then DT880 is an awesome upgrade.

But yes, hands down the DT880 is best of all 3 for classical music in my opinion. M50 is ideal for the average listener due to its more than sufficient quality for radio hits, exciting sound, convenience of not needing an amp, convenience of being able to fold them etc. As for the HD598, it just wasn't the clear sound I expected for classical, and not ideal for radio hits either in my opinion.

 

[akg fanboy]

I can't really recommend beyers, they always have honky mids to me. The q701 is the champion of classical and jazz music, it is pretty much undefeated for the price it's going for. The soundstage is huge, imaging is nice, details are all well presented without being as bright as beyers, mids have nice presence without any dips, and bass is pretty neutral. I would pick the q701 over the dt880 any day

 

[Kodhifi]

  I can't really recommend beyers, they always have honky mids to me. The q701 is the champion of classical and jazz music, it is pretty much undefeated for the price it's going for. The soundstage is huge, imaging is nice, details are all well presented without being as bright as beyers, mids have nice presence without any dips, and bass is pretty neutral. I would pick the q701 over the dt880 any day

I'm sorry but it starts with your name, continues through calling 880 's mids as 'honky' and the punch line is then suggesting the Q701 doesn't. The Q701 has some of the worst coloration, resonance spikes, and phasing issues of any headphone in my collection. If that sounds normal to you it is no wonder you find everything else to be honky. The Q701's midrange sounds like a graphic EQ after being knocked out of wack by a toddler and messing all the bands up. 

 

[akg fanboy]

  I'm sorry but it starts with your name, continues through calling 880 's mids as 'honky' and the punch line is then suggesting the Q701 doesn't. The Q701 has some of the worst coloration, resonance spikes, and phasing issues of any headphone in my collection. If that sounds normal to you it is no wonder you find everything else to be honky. The Q701's midrange sounds like a graphic EQ after being knocked out of wack by a toddler and messing all the bands up. 

Yeah my name is just for humor, it has nothing to do with my actual opinion. No need to attack me, if you think the dt880 isn't honky yet the q701 is then you have some seriously messed up ears and need to get your ears checked, no wonder why you're so biased against the q701. Speaking of coloration, maybe your hearing is damaged if you can't hear the huge treble peaks on the beyers.... HUGE treble peak, HUGE mids dip.... not colored..... k
 
http://en.goldenears.net/11302
http://en.goldenears.net/29184

 

[Kodhifi]

My energy sometimes comes out as agressive. I was laughing when I wrote it and meant it light hearted so sorry if I came off mean. I just really don't like the Q701's sound signature but I understand men like Sennheiser and martians like AKG.
 
When I pulled the Q701's out of the box I thought I got burned with a fake but they had a remarkable change in sound after just a few hours of break in to the point they went from trash to decent in a single listening session. However, there is this one teeny tiny little resonance spike in the mid range that is right there where some of my favorite vocalists sing, and it gave a tin can resonance to the vocals and really colored the sound for me. I also found the over large earpads abrasive as they rubbed my scalp and produced red rings of itchy skin around my ears. I didn't hate them enough to sell them because for some tracks they sound allright, but they are far from my favorite.
 
My hearing is just fine but I am very opinionated and sometimes there is truth in exxageration so I understand if you disagree. But 880's are almost ruler flat from 500-10,000hz. They are some of the flattest and most analytical headphones I own including the Tesla T1, HD650 and Oppo PM3's. Their mids and highs are especially free of coloration, grain, and veil.
 
I know that everybody has different ear canals, and HRTF sometimes leads to one person hearing something different than another, but you are the only person I've met on this forum that thinks the  dt880 is colored.

 

[akg fanboy]

  My energy sometimes comes out as agressive. I was laughing when I wrote it and meant it light hearted so sorry if I came off mean. I just really don't like the Q701's sound signature but I understand men like Sennheiser and martians like AKG.
 
When I pulled the Q701's out of the box I thought I got burned with a fake but they had a remarkable change in sound after just a few hours of break in to the point they went from trash to decent in a single listening session. However, there is this one teeny tiny little resonance spike in the mid range that is right there where some of my favorite vocalists sing, and it gave a tin can resonance to the vocals and really colored the sound for me. I also found the over large earpads abrasive as they rubbed my scalp and produced red rings of itchy skin around my ears. I didn't hate them enough to sell them because for some tracks they sound allright, but they are far from my favorite.
 
My hearing is just fine but I am very opinionated and sometimes there is truth in exxageration so I understand if you disagree. But 880's are almost ruler flat from 500-10,000hz. They are some of the flattest and most analytical headphones I own including the Tesla T1, HD650 and Oppo PM3's. Their mids and highs are especially free of coloration, grain, and veil.
 
I know that everybody has different ear canals, and HRTF sometimes leads to one person hearing something different than another, but you are the only person I've met on this forum that thinks the  dt880 is colored.

I love the hd800 I have nothing against sennheiser, but I still think akg is the king of budget even if that makes me a martian . Some people like big bass (audeze, fostex), others like tons of treble (grado, beyer), some like colored mids (akg, technica). I just happen to be one of the rare people who love mids I guess, but the q701 is pretty flat besides the mids... I don't think I am the only one who thinks the dt880 isn't flat (or the T1). They have an obvious treble spike, and I would call even the hd650 much flatter than the dt880.

 

[Kodhifi]

The 650's definitely roll off sooner than the 880, but nothing holds a candle to the brain melt that is the HD800 on a bad track. It's enough to make you scream. A lot of people like AKG's for their midrange, I'm just not one of them. I'm not much for mids, but the 650 with a good amp sounds right to me for mid accuracy.

 

[alynx]

I second the sharpness of the m50s and you should have taken the 990s over the 880s. They seem to fit you preferences better.