Chord Mojo 2 Thread ___ [product released January 31, 2022 -- starting on page 95 of thread]
Feb 2, 2022 at 10:13 PM Post #1,846 of 10,754
I agree that balanced does not always sound better but there are cases where it does. A cable run to a device in close proximity to a mobile phone would at minimum benefit from common-mode rejection. If you don't think it offers a benefit and other people do, why wouldn't a manufacturer offer both to satisfy both parties and maximize revenue?

The secret about balanced is that a lot of manufacturers HAVE to incorporate balanced because of their noisy substrate designs and going balanced is the only way to make them less noisy. From these devices, yes, balanced will sound better.

Chord does not need to do this since they are a better design, hence, no need for balanced.

IE:

Yes we don't need to have a balanced output because it's a dodgy fix for a problem Rob watts Dac designs don't have.
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 12:29 AM Post #1,847 of 10,754
What is "upper treble" and what is "lower treble" I wish it was more clear how these are being affected as well as "where". like is "upper treble" just from 10k-20k or does it start rolling off earlier than that (5-6khz)? I suspect this EQ is meant to create a bass boost as well as to help headphones with a bit of mid-recession or "shouty-ness" around the 3khz area. The problem is that if we bring up the 3khz area we actually have to bring it back down on most headphones or vice versa. Hope for clarity on this. Would love to EQ a set of LCD-X or LCD-2 with these to fix the upper-mid recession and would be worried about creating a big spike around 6k (as most of the audezes come back to normal around 6-7k)
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 12:47 AM Post #1,848 of 10,754
Headfonic’s review on the Mojo 2 is up.
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 12:49 AM Post #1,849 of 10,754
What is "upper treble" and what is "lower treble" I wish it was more clear how these are being affected as well as "where". like is "upper treble" just from 10k-20k or does it start rolling off earlier than that (5-6khz)? I suspect this EQ is meant to create a bass boost as well as to help headphones with a bit of mid-recession or "shouty-ness" around the 3khz area. The problem is that if we bring up the 3khz area we actually have to bring it back down on most headphones or vice versa. Hope for clarity on this. Would love to EQ a set of LCD-X or LCD-2 with these to fix the upper-mid recession and would be worried about creating a big spike around 6k (as most of the audezes come back to normal around 6-7k)

My idea of the different treble regions are as follows:

4kHz-8kHz = lower treble

8kHz-16kHz = treble

16kHz-up = upper treble/ultrasonic
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 12:55 AM Post #1,850 of 10,754
My idea of the different treble regions are as follows:

4kHz-8kHz = lower treble

8kHz-16kHz = treble

16kHz-up = upper treble/ultrasonic

I always thought...

Bass: 20hz - 200hz
Upper Bass: 200hz-700hz
Mids: 700hz-3000hz
Upper Mids: 3000hz-7000hz
Highs: 7000hz+

Either way none of this is clear in my opinion in any of the material released by chord.
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 1:03 AM Post #1,851 of 10,754
What is "upper treble" and what is "lower treble" I wish it was more clear how these are being affected as well as "where". like is "upper treble" just from 10k-20k or does it start rolling off earlier than that (5-6khz)? I suspect this EQ is meant to create a bass boost as well as to help headphones with a bit of mid-recession or "shouty-ness" around the 3khz area. The problem is that if we bring up the 3khz area we actually have to bring it back down on most headphones or vice versa. Hope for clarity on this. Would love to EQ a set of LCD-X or LCD-2 with these to fix the upper-mid recession and would be worried about creating a big spike around 6k (as most of the audezes come back to normal around 6-7k)
According to Darko. We have the exact positions if the EQ bands.

I can see me using the 20Hz & 125Hz as nice bass boosts. iFi xBass should feel threatened by this. haha

I cant imagine a scenario where the 3kHz & 20kHz bands would be applicable. Unless you got a headphone that needs help specifically at 3kHz.

Now if they had a position for 6kHz that would be nice for the Utopia & HD800S.

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Feb 3, 2022 at 1:09 AM Post #1,852 of 10,754
Especially not 20khz. I for one can't hear anywhere near that and suspect many others can't.
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 1:12 AM Post #1,853 of 10,754
According to Darko. We have the exact positions if the EQ bands.

I can see me using the 20Hz & 125Hz as nice bass boosts. iFi xBass should feel threatened by this. haha

I cant imagine a scenario where the 3kHz & 20kHz bands would be applicable. Unless you got a headphone that needs help specifically at 3kHz.

Now if they had a position for 6kHz that would be nice for the Utopia & HD800S.



I've seen this. I also see that Rob Watts compares uses the term shelf filter to describe the lower treble and mid-bass filter but not the lower bass or upper treble filter. I'm wondering if those are peak filters (which would have a bit of a different shape to shelf filters. I've also seen the diagrams in the mojo's user guide which looks as though the shelf filters have extremely large Q values and that for the lower treble filter you'd be boosting frequencies starting as low as 125hz with the peak being 3khz. I highly doubt they would put such a crappy EQ implementation in their new Mojo.

There are lots of headphones that need a bass boost as you're mentioning but also other ones that require help around 3k (think of the audezes that have a bit of recession there or all of the mid focused headphones that have a bit TOO much energy there and sound shouty) it would have made sense to have a peak filter at 3khz rather than a shelf and I'm kind of disappointed about that. Hopefully I'm wrong and it's better than I'm assuming based off of the rough diagram in the user guide.
 
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Feb 3, 2022 at 1:16 AM Post #1,854 of 10,754
Especially not 20khz. I for one can't hear anywhere near that and suspect many others can't.
Exactly. Who cares about 20khz? I can't even hear above 17k anymore which I'm lucky to have (in my late 20s) and it's only going downhill from here. Rob Watts definitely can't hear these super high frequencies. Unless this filter starts attenuating frequencies around 7k I can't see it being of much use to the average person.
 
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Feb 3, 2022 at 1:27 AM Post #1,855 of 10,754
Exactly. Who cares about 20khz? I can't even hear above 17k anymore which I'm lucky to have (in my late 20s) and it's only going downhill from here. Rob Watts definitely can't hear these super high frequencies. Unless this filter starts attenuating frequencies around 7k I can't see it being of much use to the average person.

As a music producer who works with alot of EQ's, I do hear it. Fine if you do not hear it, but that doesn't mean others don't.
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 1:31 AM Post #1,856 of 10,754
Female vocals are more forward with the Mojo 1 and with the mojo 2 are clear but a bit further back on the stage. The Mojo1 has a warmer female vocal presentation and because of that will come across more intimate. The mojo 1 offers more palpable female vocal reproduction. This will be subject to preference and I understand that some might prefer the tonal character offered by the Mojo2. For me is a win for the Mojo1

Score 4-2.5

Song Gillian Welch - The Way It Goes from the album The Harrow and the Harvest

So the difference between Mojo 1 and Mojo 2 is just character? If so, I guess it is not worth spending $1000 to upgrade from the Mojo 1 to the Mojo 2? (Because I would also need to buy a new Van Nuys case that fits the Poly + Mojo 2 which is going to be $200+ atleast for sure).
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 1:33 AM Post #1,857 of 10,754
I always thought...

Bass: 20hz - 200hz
Upper Bass: 200hz-700hz
Mids: 700hz-3000hz
Upper Mids: 3000hz-7000hz
Highs: 7000hz+

Either way none of this is clear in my opinion in any of the material released by chord.

My numbers are in general, not specific to the Mojo 2 and its eq. ✌️
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 1:34 AM Post #1,858 of 10,754
So the difference between Mojo 1 and Mojo 2 is just character? If so, I guess it is not worth spending $1000 to upgrade from the Mojo 1 to the Mojo 2? (Because I would also need to buy a new Van Nuys case that fits the Poly + Mojo 2 which is going to be $200+ atleast for sure).
No, there’s more than just character. In case anyone didn’t see Rob’s technical post about Mojo2, here it is:

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/watts-up.800264/post-16792307

So here is my technical presentation about Mojo 2 - the changes from Mojo.

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The big change here is the removal of the coupling capacitor - this gave Mojo it's distinctive warmth. It's a little strange that just one cap can have so much difference as other DACs are full of capacitors. How can one simple passive component make so much difference? I sometimes think that tonal balance is a little like balancing scales, and as one improves transparency the weight and sensitivity of the scales become more and more sensitive - so on other DACs a small change would not be a big deal, but because of Mojo's innate transparency, very small technical changes can have a profound effect.

The next big change is the noise shaper and pulse array DAC, which accounts for most of the improvements in depth perception.

But with Mojo 2 having a more neutral tonal balance, how can one tune the sound quality to taste without lossy DSP?

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The key here is being able to define what perfect means for EQ; and then being able to measure the performance - if you can't measure the actual performance, then "perfect" "transparent" or "lossless" are mere words with no verifiable meaning.

There are three important features to transparent performance - small signal amplitude accuracy, small signal phase accuracy and finally noise floor modulation.

Small signal amplitude accuracy is something I have known about for many years, with very many listening tests confirming it's importance. Whilst developing Dave, I could put a number on the requirement - basically, in order to preserve the perception of depth, I needed to be able to reproduce a -301 dB signal with an amplitude accuracy of +/- 0.001dB - these numbers are confirmed through digital simulation - in short digital domain measurements. If a noise shaper or digital module failed this test, it would degrade depth and detail perception. So if we want to preserve depth (lossless depth perception) its essential that any DSP needs to pass this demanding test.

Small signal with amplitude phase accuracy is when you compare the phase shift from a 0dBFS signal, against the same signal but at -301dB. Again, to pass the test the phase shift needs to be identical with the different amplitudes (identical meaning within +/- 0.001 deg). This realisation that digital circuits phase shifts are non-linear with amplitude started with work onto why the Hugo M scaler had better perception of depth. Since my WTA filters are small signal amplitude perfect, it implied that phase shifts with amplitude could degrade depth perception too. I tested this out with work upon Mojo's improved noise shapers - the original Mojo noise shaper did have a phase error at -301dB, and eliminating this gave much better depth perception.

The final issue is noise floor modulation, where the noise level changes with signal level. Noise floor modulation is very audible; I have heard effects when the noise floor modulation is well below measurable limits. Eliminating noise floor modulation in digital modules is possible with fixed point architecture and using noise shaping for truncation; conventional floating point DSP have significant and measurable noise floor modulation.

With EQ these problems are further compounded with IIR filters, as internal nodes are severely attenuated by low frequency coefficients - these nodes are then accumulatively amplified over time - thus a small error gets magnified into a substantial error. Indeed, I initially calculated that I would need 104 bits DSP for transparent operation - vastly larger than 64 bit DSP - but after designing the custom core, and running my suite of tests for transparency, the measurements for small signal phase failed - even with 104 bit processing on every internal node. Noise shaping allows the EQ to work linearly below 104 bits, as an error is constantly corrected. The core also passed my listening tests for transparency too.

Conventional 64 bit DSP suffers with measurable noise floor modulation, and significant errors for small signals - these filters fail to work with ultra-small signals.

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I really like cross-feed - to me it's essential with headphone listening.

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Note that the DSP is not parametric DSP, but a broad brush way of tuning the sound quality balance. That said, it can deal effectively with low frequency problems of headphones and IEMs.

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I noticed a number of posters mentioning that Mojo was too loud with ultra sensitive IEMs. So the big change here is a bigger range for low volume. Also, pressing + and - together gives you a panic mute.

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Pretty much the same as Mojo.Slide18.JPG

Again, no measurable noise floor modulation.

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The only reason I could put in more features and better sound quality was by having better battery performance, and power efficiency - so I could spend that power budget on the FPGA.

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The battery charging rate indicator is a great function. Most poor charging time is down to the cable, so being able to see the USB voltage is a useful feature.
When in desktop mode the battery is disconnected in order to maximise battery life. To do this I needed to improve the power supply rejection, by using my very low impedance discrete charger (when fully charged) and improved regulation for the amp. We can see this on the measurements as crosstalk (-118dB @ 1kHz) is better.

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This project started in 2018, with many prototypes, to fine tune the performance.

It's going to be interesting to see how well the tone controls are accepted. As an audiophile I wouldn't touch EQ with a barge pole, as all implementations (analogue or digital) seriously degrades performance. So having a way of tweaking the sound to taste, or compensating for poor LF transducer performance, without degrading transparency at all, should prove to be a powerful tool. After all, how many of us have rejected something because it is simply too bright or too warm? Of course, if it's too bright because of distortion or noise floor modulation, then EQ can't cure that. But for a linear frequency response adjustment, EQ can help.
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 1:36 AM Post #1,859 of 10,754
@ChordElectronics you should have made an ‘official‘ thread for the Mojo2 with more info in the first page, rather than this thread with 100+ pages of speculation.
 
Feb 3, 2022 at 1:40 AM Post #1,860 of 10,754
@ChordElectronics you should have made an ‘official‘ thread for the Mojo2 with more info in the first page, rather than this thread with 100+ pages of speculation.

I suggested the op of this thread remove “Speculation” from its original title since the other Mojo 2 thread was created by a Chord dealer. Having multiple threads for the same product gets tiresome to follow. ✌️

I do see your point about the bulk of this thread beginning with speculation instead of product info.
 
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