[WaveTheory]

Pc as transport is the reason for this. USB is the other. I've tried many Galvanic isolators and they all sound different and doesn't isolate as one would expect. USB on chord products is part of the issue. Due to your room resonance (despite eq), the Topping matches your room and is not a testament to the superiority of the Topping.

Try Chord products with a good dedicated streamer and a lifatec optical cable and it'll change your mind.

I didn't read his post as saying the DX7 was at all superior. He detected more bass presence from H2 and adjusted his EQ to compensate. I read his post to say the H2 was far superior in resolution and more holographic. Which, yeah. Chords utterly stomp Toppings in those categories, along with tonality, timbre, control, dynamics...

@Kentajalli you're probably perceiving more bass presence from the Hugo 2 for a couple reasons. First, Toppings measure flat down to 20Hz with pure sine waves but with more complicated waveforms - like music - every one of their amps and DACs I've reviewed roll off down below 50 or 60 Hz, sometimes higher depending on model. Second, the Topping house sound is very smooth and trying to be inoffensive. To my ear most of them are oversmoothed and suppress the dynamics (by which I mean the physicality, things like punch, slam, or the snappiness of snare drums) to an unnatural degree. They can sound like they are restraining the music. The Hugo 2 is very fast and dynamic and lively. That extra life is probably making it sound like there is more bass quantity than there actually is, especially if you're used to the DX7's presentation.

If you're using USB from a PC for the Hugo 2, I agree with the rest that you'll get another impressive performance jump from the H2 by using one of its SPDIF inputs.

 

[559363]

Oh, one more thing before nighty nite.

I have seen comparions of SPDIF sources, but variables are not equal.

For example, I've seen someone compare a Coax out of a pi2design versus an Allo streamer. pi2design uses NDK oscillators which is considered 'Hi-Fi'.

They compared it over a Allo streamer which uses the WM8805 embedded osciallator. It's not a fair comparision. Hi-Fi > embedded.

You can't compare that to say a Chromecast Audio which has an even worse embedded clock.

My clocks are larger in size than the Hugo2 and run off Super Capacitors, so there's no equal to compare. That's why it will be the best SPDIF source for Chord DAC's for the next five years given I give care to the software and power too and well as well-mastered redbook sources. There's no point in working on a State of the Art USB optical source as USB is inferior even if I max it out.

So if you prefer Coax over toslink, it may be more you are preferring the clock upgrade. It's easy to prefer an Hi-Fi clock over an embedded clock so it may not be the cabling one should be comparing?

TV out optical even worse. Similar to PC optical which likely has embedded clocks. Only one particular Dual CPU motherboard, you can put it your own clocking.

DAP optical likely embedded, but I've seen DAPs have HiFi clocks. I doubt it's for SPDIF, just for their own off the shelf DAC. But I've read impressions where some preferred the DAP w/ clocks optical but that's faded away with modern streamers.

Also have to take into account operating system, playback software, system config, etc.

For example, I only run real-time kernels like they do with stock trading systems for absolute low latency. My OS loads into RAM @4GB. I can pull out the USB stick and it still works normally since the whole OS runs off of RAM. My playback software loads tracks in RAM before playback with a 4GB buffer. My CPU cores have one core dedicated to general OS and the remaining cores are all dedicated to audio ONLY. Of course, my power sources are extremely low latency being Super Capacitors about 20x the size of TT2 Super Caps.

So in order to do a fair comparision of SPDIF products, you need to make sure clocks are similar as well as other upstream variables.

Off my chest. Apologies for the drive-by multi-posts. It's a one tyme deal. It's been fun.

Optical is always the reference input.

 

[801evan]

I didn't read his post as saying the DX7 was at all superior. He detected more bass presence from H2 and adjusted his EQ to compensate. I read his post to say the H2 was far superior in resolution and more holographic. Which, yeah. Chords utterly stomp Toppings in those categories, along with tonality, timbre, control, dynamics...

[

DX7 pro cons:
Hardly any! Remote control had issues, I think all the filters and even BT are just a gimmick.
Smooth to a fault, a little glossed over.
Hugo2 cons:
Demands of you to sit up and pay attention! Not as smooth as DX7 pro. Depending on recording, can sound a little harsh.
I would like to say it sounds Raw, but that could be a plus point.
With DX7 pro you could listen to background music for hours, no fatigue - Hugo2 is not for background music listening! Even at low volumes, it demands attention, which can be disturbing.

'smooth to a fault'... Smooth is what you want.
The cons on the Hugo 2 shows it's shouty. If it's really good dynamics then it shouldn't sound harsh on some recordings. He can't even decide if it's too raw and thinks it's a good thing. No it's not.
The fact that dx7 pro is called non-fatiguing gives the edge to the dx7 pro. Hence my suggestions on my previous post.

 

[801evan]

My playback software loads tracks in RAM before playback with a 4GB buffer

Sadly, this makes sq really bad and leads to poor timing.

 

[Kentajalli]

I didn't read his post as saying the DX7 was at all superior. He detected more bass presence from H2 and adjusted his EQ to compensate. I read his post to say the H2 was far superior in resolution and more holographic. Which, yeah. Chords utterly stomp Toppings in those categories, along with tonality, timbre, control, dynamics...

Correct, I never said DX7 pro was superior. Regarding bass, I said I detected more lower bass to subsonics from Hugo2, where Topping seemed to lack the same subsonics. These subsomics excite my room's resonance, hence the stronger notch filter.

@Kentajalli you're probably perceiving more bass presence from the Hugo 2 for a couple reasons. First, Toppings measure flat down to 20Hz with pure sine waves but with more complicated waveforms - like music - every one of their amps and DACs I've reviewed roll off down below 50 or 60 Hz, sometimes higher depending on model. Second, the Topping house sound is very smooth and trying to be inoffensive. To my ear most of them are oversmoothed and suppress the dynamics (by which I mean the physicality, things like punch, slam, or the snappiness of snare drums) to an unnatural degree. They can sound like they are restraining the music. The Hugo 2 is very fast and dynamic and lively. That extra life is probably making it sound like there is more bass quantity than there actually is, especially if you're used to the DX7's presentation.

Measuring a device under steady state conditions with tone generators is one thing, under dynamic conditions (playing actual music) it can behave differently.
It seems Topping had gone for the lowest noise and distortion figures to pass lab tests, they managed it, but the final sound is a bit glossed over, hence my sentiment smooth to a fault!

If you're using USB from a PC for the Hugo 2, I agree with the rest that you'll get another impressive performance jump from the H2 by using one of its SPDIF inputs.

I can not see why coax would be better! Optical, yes, it is totally insulated.
The mentioned Topping HS-01 I used, is a full galvanic isolator, and it has been measured to show it does its job very well, so a clean USB signal, should in theory be better than Toslink, because it is Asynchronous. But I do understand that the DPLL employed on Toslink input is very good.
I just can not get my head around Toslink to be better than a clean USB, at least on paper.

 

[Kentajalli]

'smooth to a fault'... Smooth is what you want.
The cons on the Hugo 2 shows it's shouty. If it's really good dynamics then it shouldn't sound harsh on some recordings. He can't even decide if it's too raw and thinks it's a good thing. No it's not.
The fact that dx7 pro is called non-fatiguing gives the edge to the dx7 pro. Hence my suggestions on my previous post.

You are way off!
Glossed over is smooth to a fault.
Topping is a little too polite, just a tad! Makes for a very good inoffensive sound.
Hugo2 is not polite where it needs to be aggressive, depends on the music content. If a loud Sax or guitar solo jumps in, Hugo2 plays it back as aggressive, Topping photoshops the rough edges out, glossing over it.
This tendency of Hugo2 means, pay attention! If you follow the music, the aggressive Sax would make sense, but if it is playing while you are doing the washing! Then it could be disturbing (makes you jump).
Where on earth did you pull shoutiness out of ?
If you make an assumption, ask first - don't go building on it and get to wrong conclusions.

 

[Daniel Johnston]

'smooth to a fault'... Smooth is what you want.
The cons on the Hugo 2 shows it's shouty. If it's really good dynamics then it shouldn't sound harsh on some recordings. He can't even decide if it's too raw and thinks it's a good thing. No it's not.
The fact that dx7 pro is called non-fatiguing gives the edge to the dx7 pro. Hence my suggestions on my previous post.

I would not describe Hugo 2 as “shouty”.
It only sounds harsh on poorly mastered!harsh recordings. It is not a forgiving DAC in that aspect. It has excellent dynamics. It is not fatiguing and it is not euphonic. As a bonus, the Hugo 2 measures well.

 

[WaveTheory]

I would not describe Hugo 2 as “shouty”.

Agreed. The H2's "amp" can push the mids forward on some headphones/IEMs. So if the headphone already leans toward shouty it can exacerbate the problem. However, I've never noticed the same when using H2 as a DAC and feeding an external amp.

 

[801evan]

The mentioned Topping HS-01 I used, is a full galvanic isolator, and it has been measured to show it does its job very well, so a clean USB signal, should in theory be better than Toslink, because it is Asynchronous.

Galvanic isolation doesn't really mean anything in real world performance. It will help and improve the sound a bit but is very inadequate. The shoutiness will still be heard. And in some cases the blacks will be worse.

Topping is a little too polite, just a tad! Makes for a very good inoffensive sound.
Hugo2 is not polite where it needs to be aggressive, depends on the music content. If a loud Sax or guitar solo jumps in, Hugo2 plays it back as aggressive, Topping photoshops the rough edges out, glossing over it.
This tendency of Hugo2 means, pay attention! If you follow the music, the aggressive Sax would make sense, but if it is playing while you are doing the washing! Then it could be disturbing (makes you jump).
Where on earth did you pull shoutiness out of ?
If you make an assumption, ask first - don't go building on it and get to wrong conclusions.

If Topping is too polite then it's not exactly smooth but missing some resolution and harmonics. Try upgrading it's op amp to sparkos pros.

The fact that you say Hugo2 is aggressive is exactly why I'm saying what you are hearing is shouty and you aren't hearing real dynamics. I dunno why a sax has to be aggressive on a solo. But don't worry, many people make this mistake and what you are hearing is far from the potential of the Hugo2. The fact that the Hugo 2 is running on battery already sets it in a position of lacking speed and top end extension and having a mid bass bloat. While it's a slower sound, it also crushes the upper mids. USB ok the Hugo 2 is never a linear affair too. There will be a slight hump on the mids/upper mids. Hence that attention grabbing quality and the the mid forward sound wave theory is claiming.

Agreed. The H2's "amp" can push the mids forward on some headphones/IEMs. So if the headphone already leans toward shouty it can exacerbate the problem. However, I've never noticed the same when using H2 as a DAC and feeding an external amp.

Except Hugo 2's amp doesn't have that mid forward quality if you do the chain right. If you do USB and don't have an optimized chain, then you will get what you are hearing. This is also why you think the Hugo 2 can't drive the Stealth when it comfortably can with good bass extension and good smoothness. Using an external amp will buff off all the transparency that Hugo 2 has and you are simply coloring, filing off transients and re-introducing distortion, both pleasant and unpleasant ones to come off with a sound you happen to like.

 

[theveterans]

Don't use Coax, it's a RF antenna. There's a reason no reputable brand wants to carry coax, just go USB optical is a better route. There's no Audioquest Diamond Coax, etc. Coax is a dead end. It doesn't decouple. Reason to move to SPDIF is to decouple. Why would one intentionally run Coax on a Chord DAC, makes no sense.

BTW, Chord M-Scaler uses dual BNC which runs the same cable spec as COAX. People who use the M-Scaler pretty much uses COAX interface. A well-made Coax cable from reputable makers has all the RF rejection it needs as to not inject EMI/RFI to the system

 

[Rob Watts]

@Rob Watts

After watching Stranger Things (Netflix), I'm trying to extract data from my Kate Bush "Black Triangle" well-mastered Redbook.

What do you recommend? Extract pre-emphasis or de-emphasis?

I remembered you mentioned the Hugo2 handles this automatically. What's the optimal?

My whole chain is on fire and humming well, so I want to make sure I feed the Hugo2 properly. I have zero weakness in the chain, so I don't want to make a misstep.

You do not need to extract pre-emphasis/de-emphasis, Hugo 2 will do everything automatically via the SPDIF emphasis flag that is embedded within the SPDIF standard.

Note that only a very few CDs from the 80s actually used emphasis, so not something to worry about today.

 

[559363]

You do not need to extract pre-emphasis/de-emphasis, Hugo 2 will do everything automatically via the SPDIF emphasis flag that is embedded within the SPDIF standard.

Note that only a very few CDs from the 80s actually used emphasis, so not something to worry about today.

Cheers Sir Rob,

You are the best. In this case I will try to extract both and try to notice a difference.

Very few CDs, but important well-mastered Black Triangle CDs like Pink Floyd DSOTM, The Beatles Abbey Road, Iron Maiden, etc.

Since following your amazing advice over the years, I was able to build the ultimate experience for the Hugo2. That was my goal, to build a euphoric experience like going to IMAX. It took years, but I finally was able to acheive this consistent euphoric experience. So I make sure I feed it well and not garbage. GIGO. Non-Audiophlle tracks work well too, but Audiophile CDs are just a consistent complete euphoria like no other when done right. Not all Audiophile albums are perfect.

I wanted to complete this project by the release of the Hugo3, so I'm well ahead of schedule.

Well-mastered redbook just scales so amazingly with a modern decoupled off the grid source that's done right. No Mickey Mousing around here.

EDIT: I forgot to mention instruments become more realistic. Extremely quick transients due to being so close to bare metal (low latency all around). Layering and Air that are extremely effortless that it just melts in your ears. No other stack / source out there will match this experience for C/IEMS for years, then Hugo3 thanks to your future efforts... Steppin into Summit-Fi territory with C/IEMs is fun. I can say it's Summit-Fi because it's a complete different better experience. Sure sounds like Summit-Fi...

 

[559363]

BTW, Chord M-Scaler uses dual BNC which runs the same cable spec as COAX. People who use the M-Scaler pretty much uses COAX interface. A well-made Coax cable from reputable makers has all the RF rejection it needs as to not inject EMI/RFI to the system

If you are talking about the $3,000 cable with Ferrites. That's not an exact science. That's a half measure solution. Ferrites are such high variance. Too much or too little auto throws off the sound. Pretty Mickey Mouse IMO. Those that listen with their wallets don't mind half ass solutions and long as it's a brag (those who can see it's Mickey Mouse and a gimmick don't agree). But as long as they get their wooden box packaging, that's all that matters.

The goal is to decouple between the source and the DAC. The cooper wire and connectors can potentially cause noise.

In the case of the M-Scaler, if it's off grid the cable is irrelevant. But if it's on Mains, it's a concern as the cooper wiring and metal connectors can introduce noise.

If I had a M-Scaler, with the $3,000, I would instead power with 15V SuperCapacitors and shop for my own brand of cabling. Not what somebody charging a high markup that will cut corners after sprinkling ferrite pixie dust dictates. Because once you go off Mains, you can determine your own course. Not be someone's bi*ch (you are not their Marketing tool to sucker the next one like a Pyramid Scheme) that determines which brand you use because you don't have the critical thinking to come up with a complete solution. You ever notice how they sucker Chord users in with LPS to sell more cables. Once they lock you into to a Mickey Mouse LPS solution, you get targeted. LPS are super spreaders of RFI/EMI thus "Oh, you need this cable to offset RFI/EMI. Only $3000 noob". I rather Chord users be empowered to their own destiny, not a toolbox. This whole site it's easy to fall for propaganda and misinformation. Rob Watts is the only reliable source and then one can make their own decision... Don't be so guillable to influencers... They are not your friend, their goal is to maximise profit (cut corners, cost). When they start Private Messaging you showing how cool their system is with a LPS, delete right away. They know you just got a Chord DAC + M-Scaler + LPS.

Industrial:




Car Audio:


Basically, you add a PCB to the +-. Plug into wall outlet. When activated, the PCB cuts off from the mains.

I heard amazing impressions like instruments becoming more real when M-Scaler powered by SuperCaps. TT2 is powered by SuperCaps, why not M-Scaler too? Tech is there now if you are willing to splurge a little.

Anyways, thanks for chiming in. It's been fun.

 

[559363]

Anyways, thanks for letting me shoot the breeze and speak my mind. I just wanted stop by to ask Rob Watts a question and Rob Watts was generous to answer.

Sorry if I'm being a bit direct, I wasn't planning on staying long so I just had to let it flow.

I'm bypassing Mojo2, it's in No Man's Land. Pennies better saved for a Hugo3.

@ The beginning of the year, I think I'm going to build this for my grab and go needs:

I should be able to install a realtime low-latency as the CPU should be strong and modern. 1 USB-C Power although I will power via the pins with a proper beefy low latency battery, but I guess you can battery pack (bottled by regulator, so performance takes a hit) it too.

1 USB-C Data for an iPhone Dongle (USB-C DAC). It's the gold standard for portable IEM users as it measures well via ASR.

I will solder off the Ethernet Ports to slim it down. Size 2+inch X 2+inch. 5cm? X 5cm?

I'll just have to configure a Hotspot to remote control via iPhone.

I'm also considering a portable PCI-E solution with a Audiophile JCAT USB (slim down, size of a small DAP?) card but I don't know how to power PCI-E yet as it has different power requirements.

Take care everyone. It's been real. Stranger Things!!!

 

[Kentajalli]

Agreed. The H2's "amp" can push the mids forward on some headphones/IEMs. So if the headphone already leans toward shouty it can exacerbate the problem. However, I've never noticed the same when using H2 as a DAC and feeding an external amp.

It maybe.
I never noticed any shoutiness! Somebody is assuming, Raw sounding is same as shoutiness, but not me.
Neither DACs were shouty in the slightest.
Besides, I checked both DACs using RCA outputs, no headphones involved.