[romaz]

I wish there was no difference in sound when it comes to audio cabling. My god, the money I'd be able to save. Unfortunately, in my all Audio Note system, I can easily hear the difference between AN copper and AN silver, silver being the far better conductor. I can only afford the mid-range AN-SPx 27 strand, but if I won the lottery I'd defiantly invest in their Sogon 96.

If I could design my perfect BluDAVE, both DAVE and M-scaler would reside on the same PCB so that external cabling wouldn't be necessary. I would then power DAVE and M-scaler externally and independently with ultracapacitors. While not as good as an SR7, with ultracapacitors, I wouldn't have to worry about the quality of my mains at all. No expensive line conditioning or mains cables to worry about. I would then build into this perfect BluDAVE an internal Ethernet renderer directly connected to M-scaler via high bandwidth optical. Ethernet input would be optical as well. Obviously, optical is completely devoid of RF and with DAVE, optical-associated jitter wouldn't be a concern.

With regards to Rob's digital amps, instead of connecting via copper, once again, I would devise some sort of high bandwidth optical connection via inexpensive optical cabling. This way, I can position my digital monoblocks as close to the speakers as possible and not have to worry about buying expensive long length copper interconnects and the heavy RF associated with them. Of course, these digital monoblocks would themselves be powered by ultracapacitors. Vinnie Rossi already has such an amplifier.

http://www.vinnierossi.com/vr120-power-amplifier/

If I really wanted to think outside the box, I would design active speakers bi-amplified by these digital amps so that I wouldn't need to bother with speaker cabling. Of course, these bi-amped speakers would extend down to 20Hz so that a subwoofer wouldn't be necessary. I would also incorporate a multichannel decoder into the built-in renderer and make DAVE multichannel as well. This way, I have both music and movies covered with a one box solution.

Rob, please make this happen.

 

[lojay]

For those looking to build something on their own, the following are my key ingredients to success:

1. Paul Hynes SR7. It is unlikely this PSU will be surpassed by another PSU anytime soon. For me, this is a statement PSU that is as end game as any component I am aware of. As many know, Paul is based in Scotland. I am impressed by how many of the very best products that I admire seem to be coming from the UK these days. (MQA might be the exception, lol).

2. SOtM sCLK-EX. This is a clock board that can be used to replace any clock on any device. This single board can be used to replace up to 4 clocks. As an example, most routers utilize 2 clocks, a network switch utilizes 1 clock, a motherboard utilizes a single system clock that then serves as a reference for many subclocks (DPLL). Most input and output cards (USB, Ethernet) utilize 1 clock. Most endpoints (Iso Regen, microRendu, ultraRendu, tX-USBultra, sMS-200, etc) utilize 1 or 2 clocks. In my particular chain, I replaced 8 clocks. Each sCLK-EX board costs about $1100 with 4 clocks activated and so I own 2 of these boards.

3. Mutec REF10 master clock. This master clock generator is used to synchronize all the clocks that have been replaced with the sCLK-EX to its own 10MHz OCXO clock. This is reportedly the finest OCXO clock there is today with respect to phase noise (which is the most important quality for audio) and easily surpasses the phase noise of atomic clocks (rubidium). It is not likely to be bettered anytime soon. At about 3,200 Euros, this device is expensive but considering what it has the potential of doing (ie elevating your server to "finest in the world" status), I consider it a bargain.

My current server is undergoing final modifications (hopefully, the last) and I should receive it back soon from Korea. Once I receive it, I will report back on how it impacts BluDAVE but having just heard the impact of swapping an inexpensive Pangea USB cable with SOtM's latest USB cable with my Blu2, I have no doubt it will add to what BluDAVE provides.

Hi Roy,

Good to hear from you again on Head-Fi.

I certainly don't doubt what you are hearing. Your findings have influenced many of us here and on other forums. My decision to buy the DAVE was based on your recommendation. I have since brought my DAVE over for some of my audiophile friends to listen. One of my audio friends preferred his much more expensive CH Precision C1+D1 combo, but was in awe as to how a small and relatively inexpensive (!) device as the DAVE could produce such outstanding results. Having listened to other systems with and without the DAVE, I must say that the performance of the DAVE was held back by the digital server, source and cabling that were used in foreign environments. The DAVE, when used without care as to digital cabling and source, can sound less effortless, calm, rich and open as it sounds in a comparatively well-treated front-end environment. This is consistent with the marked improvement in these areas which I hear when I upgrade my upstream equipment.

Having followed your progress semi-religiously, as I share very similar audiophile goals and music preferences to you, I am aiming to achieve a modest degree of what you are achieving by relying on a modified SOtM sMS1000SQ so that it has two ethernet ports connected to the motherboard. I might consider commissioning a relatively cheap server build but it looks like that's far too much hassle. I also have on order the sMS200ultra, tX-USBultra, a SOtM modified switch and a SOtM modified router, each of which (together with the sMS-1000SQ) will be clocked by sCLK-EX and fitted with upgraded caps and/or regulators, upgraded OCC cables and eABS-200. All of these devices will be powered by two Paul Hynes SR7MR4 (with 1 DR rail each) and the LAN cabling will be dCBL-CAT7 with the iSO-CAT6. I will also have an ISO-Regen, two LPS-1 units and a sPS-500 to compare these with.

In this regard, I note that you've moved from an ethernet based solution (server -> sMS-200ultra -> tX-USBultra -> BluDAVE) to a simpler USB solution (modified low power server -> tX-USBultra - BluDAVE). It would be nice to know how the ethernet solution compares to the USB solution on the BluDAVE.

 

[GryphonGuy]

Yes, but bits are still bits. If the "analogue square waves" are distorted to the point where they are not interpreted correctly by the DAC then we do not get 'slightly different' music or 'slightly different' sound from the DAC, we get a click or worse.

RF or EMF is likewise not amending the bitsteam but is getting into the analogue system after the DAC conversion and is overlaid on the analogue signal. Whether RF or EMF is a problem is very system or environment dependant and this is just the same for mains cables and equipment. ie if you don't have a problem then you don't need to fix it.

Yes, and Thank you. You've explained it much better than I ever could have.

Regards
GG

 

[romaz]

Hi Roy,

Good to hear from you again on Head-Fi.

I certainly don't doubt what you are hearing. Your findings have influenced many of us here and on other forums. My decision to buy the DAVE was based on your recommendation. I have since brought my DAVE over for some of my audiophile friends to listen. One of my audio friends preferred his much more expensive CH Precision C1+D1 combo, but was in awe as to how a small and relatively inexpensive (!) device as the DAVE could produce such outstanding results. Having listened to other systems with and without the DAVE, I must say that the performance of the DAVE was held back by the digital server, source and cabling that were used in foreign environments. The DAVE, when used without care as to digital cabling and source, can sound less effortless, calm, rich and open as it sounds in a comparatively well-treated front-end environment. This is consistent with the marked improvement in these areas which I hear when I upgrade my upstream equipment.

Having followed your progress semi-religiously, as I share very similar audiophile goals and music preferences to you, I am aiming to achieve a modest degree of what you are achieving by relying on a modified SOtM sMS1000SQ so that it has two ethernet ports connected to the motherboard. I might consider commissioning a relatively cheap server build but it looks like that's far too much hassle. I also have on order the sMS200ultra, tX-USBultra, a SOtM modified switch and a SOtM modified router, each of which (together with the sMS-1000SQ) will be clocked by sCLK-EX and fitted with upgraded caps and/or regulators, upgraded OCC cables and eABS-200. All of these devices will be powered by two Paul Hynes SR7MR4 (with 1 DR rail each) and the LAN cabling will be dCBL-CAT7 with the iSO-CAT6. I will also have an ISO-Regen, two LPS-1 units and a sPS-500 to compare these with.

In this regard, I note that you've moved from an ethernet based solution (server -> sMS-200ultra -> tX-USBultra -> BluDAVE) to a simpler USB solution (modified low power server -> tX-USBultra - BluDAVE). It would be nice to know how the ethernet solution compares to the USB solution on the BluDAVE.

Hi Jason.

Thanks. You are already quite ambitious with what you're doing. I'm confident you will find the difference to be significant and worthwhile.

I don't want to go too far off topic as this thread should remain about Blu2 but here is a quick response.

It really isn't necessary to commission a new server build when you already have the sMS-1000SQ. That server has a tendency to sound thin but I think you will notice quite a change once you power it with your Paul Hynes SR7. I suspect that its PSU is its main weakness. Because that server already incorporates a very good USB output card in addition to an sCLK-EX board, you could save a considerable sum going straight USB to just the tX-USBultra. If you find you want more tonal density, you could also add the Iso Regen. You can't go wrong with either but the combination of the 2 is really something to behold.

I moved away from an Ethernet renderer for 3 reasons:

1) With a low power server like your sMS-1000SQ and powered by a low noise, low impedance PSU like the SR7, I found the benefits of Ethernet isolation to no longer be necessary. Using only a tX-USBultra, I could hear no difference against the sMS-200ultra + modified switch.
2) Straight USB is simpler and less confining. With something like the sMS-200ultra or ultraRendu, you're forced to the limitations of their Linux-based OSs. While the ultraRendu can now do Spotify, for a long time, I had to revert back to my Mac Mini alone just to be able to run Spotify. Same thing for watching videos on YouTube, Vimeo, etc.
3. Adding the Mutec REF10 external master clock greatly overshadowed the impact of all those extra components. In terms of impact, you would do better to divert funds toward the REF10 if budget is tight.

Regardless of which path you take, I think you'll be very happy. Good luck.

 

[Triode User]

Perhaps the foundation of it all is the power supply and I have yet to find a power supply that can do what Paul Hynes' SR7 can do, better than even ultra-capacitor based PSUs that I have on hand. For example, the Zenith appears to use a well-implemented linear PSU based on a single transformer that then feeds 3 rails. Noise output from its regulators are claimed to be 40uV which is very good as this is nearly 25x less noisy than the LT1083 regulators (about 1,000-2000uV) used by the popular HDPlex LPSUs. However, Paul Hynes' regulator circuits, which are of his own design, have noise levels in the 4uV range, about 10x quieter than the Zenith. Is this audible? Yes, very much so.

Perhaps even more important is output impedance which is, in a simplistic sense, the agility of a power supply to be able to respond rapidly to current requirements that are important not just for macrodynamics but also for microdynamics. It allows for the ability to glean dynamic shadings and subtle nuances within a passage. Notes start and stop more cleanly. Very few PSU makers report this value either because they are unaware that this is important, because their supplies have very high impedance and so they prefer not to advertise it, or because they don't have the equipment to measure it. It would be ideal to have an impedance of zero ohms but the reality is that all electronics have some impedance. A well regarded switching PSU I have on hand has a measured output impedance of about 50 milliohms and so I will assume that some of the finer LPSUs out there will be better than this even though most have no measurements to report (including Zenith). The large Vinnie Rossi ultracapacitor-based PSU has a reported output impedance of about 16 milliohms and indeed, that is a wonderful sounding PSU. The small LPS-1 by Uptone Audio is probably a little better than this but they are unable to report values because they don't own measuring equipment. Paul Hynes' SR7 has an output impedance of <3 milliohms from DC all the way to 100kHz. I have yet to hear anything that can do what the SR7 can do and so not surprisingly, I consider the SR7 as the foundation to any server I build. Should you decide to commission Paul to build a PSU to replace the one in your Zenith, I'm fairly certain you will notice an improvement that will not be subtle.

Thank you for your long and interesting post. I have quoted just a small part of it as it deals with power supplies. I think you are quite correct to dwell on the importance of power supplies.

You say, "Perhaps even more important is output impedance which is, in a simplistic sense, the agility of a power supply to be able to respond rapidly to current requirements that are important not just for macrodynamics but also for microdynamics. It allows for the ability to glean dynamic shadings and subtle nuances within a passage. Notes start and stop more cleanly." But you are talking here about a power supply to a server where all the music is in the digital domain. I would agree with you about the ability of a power supply to affect any and all of those aspects when the music is in analogue format such as an amplifier or even a DAC which is outputting analogue but it makes no sense to talk about a power supplies response to current requirements etc affecting the sound of music that is in the digital domain ie within a server. A loud bass note signal within the server requires exactly the same power as a whisper quiet sound of a feather falling on the floor because within the server they are just digital instructions to the eventual DAC. Notes cannot "start and stop more cleanly" because of "the agility of a power supply (within the server) to be able to respond rapidly to current requirements". I am sorry but this doesn't make sense to me.

I mention this because I think there is a fair amount of misunderstanding here. I am not saying that the power supply in a server does not affect the eventual music that we hear but it is extremely unlikely to be because of it's ability to supply power in the way that you describe. More likely is perhaps noise and interference that it is either filtering out or in the worst case injecting into the system for onward transmission to components further downstream.

 

[Triode User]

I wish there was no difference in sound when it comes to audio cabling. My god, the money I'd be able to save. Unfortunately, in my all Audio Note system, I can easily hear the difference between AN copper and AN silver, silver being the far better conductor. I can only afford the mid-range AN-SPx 27 strand, but if I won the lottery I'd defiantly invest in their Sogon 96.

I too prefer silver in some of my cabling but I restrict it to the transformer windings within my Music First passive pre amp. There the slighty better conductance of the silver allows a slightly different winding and which I can hear. However, before getting excited about silver in our cables it is worth remembering that it is only 7% better at conducting compared to copper. The easy and sensible way to get a copper wire to perform as well as silver is just to make it slightly (7%) thicker. Indeed my best sounding speaker cables are just boring old copper (not even OFC) but they are short (1.2m) and they are very thick (16mm2) and they trounce every other exotic cable I have heard even some costing many many thousands of pounds.

Using silver in a digital cable makes even less sense.

I do not wish to start a cable discussion in this thread as it is off topic so I am happy to discuss this by PM and perhaps best to use PM if you wish to respond.

 

[Crgreen]

Congratulations, I hope to soon learn the lesson that you have learned, that at some point, enough is enough. The only way that is possible is to quit the forums and become oblivious to the latest shiny object that comes out. Once Rob's digital amps come out and once Davina answers for him how many TAPS are good enough to equal analog, I will be at my end game and live happily with what I have.

Contrary to how I might have presented myself, I am not looking to spend money on cables if I can avoid it but I have to be convinced of it. I, too, have ordered these ferrite filters in various sizes so that I can try them not only on the stock RG59 BNC cables that came with my Blu2 but also on some of these other cables that I have. Mine should arrive on Wednesday.

Is that a genuine prediction or a statement of intent? Do you really foresee yourself becoming oblivious to the latest shiny object, and not tracking what's going on in forums such as this?

 

[onsionsi]

This streamer looks like the end of game but not affordable at least for me

http://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html

 

[Muataz]

If I could design my perfect BluDAVE, both DAVE and M-scaler would reside on the same PCB so that external cabling wouldn't be necessary. I would then power DAVE and M-scaler externally and independently with ultracapacitors. While not as good as an SR7, with ultracapacitors, I wouldn't have to worry about the quality of my mains at all. No expensive line conditioning or mains cables to worry about. I would then build into this perfect BluDAVE an internal Ethernet renderer directly connected to M-scaler via high bandwidth optical. Ethernet input would be optical as well. Obviously, optical is completely devoid of RF and with DAVE, optical-associated jitter wouldn't be a concern.

With regards to Rob's digital amps, instead of connecting via copper, once again, I would devise some sort of high bandwidth optical connection via inexpensive optical cabling. This way, I can position my digital monoblocks as close to the speakers as possible and not have to worry about buying expensive long length copper interconnects and the heavy RF associated with them. Of course, these digital monoblocks would themselves be powered by ultracapacitors. Vinnie Rossi already has such an amplifier.

http://www.vinnierossi.com/vr120-power-amplifier/

If I really wanted to think outside the box, I would design active speakers bi-amplified by these digital amps so that I wouldn't need to bother with speaker cabling. Of course, these bi-amped speakers would extend down to 20Hz so that a subwoofer wouldn't be necessary. I would also incorporate a multichannel decoder into the built-in renderer and make DAVE multichannel as well. This way, I have both music and movies covered with a one box solution.

Rob, please make this happen.

With this dream setup I can take a loan with peace.

 

[Crgreen]

This streamer looks like the end of game but not affordable at least for me

http://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html

How much?!?!

Well, at least you get a 5 per cent discount for two. I wonder whether this won't just amount to a very expensive paperweight after a few years when technology, and possibly the company, have moved on. Is there really any such thing as an endgame when it comes to server technology?

 

[romaz]

Thank you for your long and interesting post. I have quoted just a small part of it as it deals with power supplies. I think you are quite correct to dwell on the importance of power supplies.

You say, "Perhaps even more important is output impedance which is, in a simplistic sense, the agility of a power supply to be able to respond rapidly to current requirements that are important not just for macrodynamics but also for microdynamics. It allows for the ability to glean dynamic shadings and subtle nuances within a passage. Notes start and stop more cleanly." But you are talking here about a power supply to a server where all the music is in the digital domain. I would agree with you about the ability of a power supply to affect any and all of those aspects when the music is in analogue format such as an amplifier or even a DAC which is outputting analogue but it makes no sense to talk about a power supplies response to current requirements etc affecting the sound of music that is in the digital domain ie within a server. A loud bass note signal within the server requires exactly the same power as a whisper quiet sound of a feather falling on the floor because within the server they are just digital instructions to the eventual DAC. Notes cannot "start and stop more cleanly" because of "the agility of a power supply (within the server) to be able to respond rapidly to current requirements". I am sorry but this doesn't make sense to me.

I mention this because I think there is a fair amount of misunderstanding here. I am not saying that the power supply in a server does not affect the eventual music that we hear but it is extremely unlikely to be because of it's ability to supply power in the way that you describe. More likely is perhaps noise and interference that it is either filtering out or in the worst case injecting into the system for onward transmission to components further downstream.

With respect to a power supply's output impedance and its impact on a digital server, we can agree to disagree.

I'm not an electrical engineer and so I won't debate you on the merits of my post except to state that its contents are derived from comments made by Paul Hynes and John Swenson, both of whom are electrical engineers as well as PSU designers and manufacturers.

According to John Swenson with regards to output impedance of a PSU and digital audio equipment:

"It's not just noise that is important. The capability of the supply to handle multiple closely spaced transients I have found to be very important to the sound, particularly for digital audio. Many batteries by themselves have too high an impedance to handle this properly."

"For use running a computer the transient behavior of the supply is very important. A computer is not a continuous current load, but varies all over the place and changes very quickly."

Here is a comment from Paul with regards to his SR5, a power supply originally designed to power a digital music server (Mac Mini). You can skip to the bottom of the quote if you wish:

"The SR5 was designed in response to requests for Mac Mini rated power supplies. The power rating had to be 80W continuous and it can also provide 350W transient delivery. This is achieved by increasing the mains transformer rating to 160VA, additional energy storage capacitance for robust power delivery with large dynamic load transients and the design of a custom chassis to house this and the electronics and heat sink required for this power upgrade. I also increased the power ratings of the Schottky Barrier rectification and the output stage device to provide the power rating with comfortable margins for safety and long life. More space within the chassis allowed me to design a mains transformer that would address the shortcomings of “off the shelf” mains transformers. In particular, core saturation is a big issue as the transformer operation stalls when this happens. Other big issues are electrical and mechanical noise. The SR5 and SR7 mains transformers are carefully wound on manually operated winding machines using over sized grain orientated silicon steel cores and high quality wire to minimise these issues. They are designed for low impedance operation and can thus deliver very large transient currents to the load."

I can provide you more quotes if you wish or better yet, I can connect you directly with Paul Hynes.

 

[romaz]

I too prefer silver in some of my cabling but I restrict it to the transformer windings within my Music First passive pre amp. There the slighty better conductance of the silver allows a slightly different winding and which I can hear. However, before getting excited about silver in our cables it is worth remembering that it is only 7% better at conducting compared to copper. The easy and sensible way to get a copper wire to perform as well as silver is just to make it slightly (7%) thicker. Indeed my best sounding speaker cables are just boring old copper (not even OFC) but they are short (1.2m) and they are very thick (16mm2) and they trounce every other exotic cable I have heard even some costing many many thousands of pounds.

Using silver in a digital cable makes even less sense.

I do not wish to start a cable discussion in this thread as it is off topic so I am happy to discuss this by PM and perhaps best to use PM if you wish to respond.

I think we finally agree on something . This is from my post on the DAVE thread from last year:

"Is there a good alternative to silver cabling? Yes, large gauge copper. If you look at the conductivity chart above, notice that silver is only 5% more conductive than copper. A competent 10g UP-OCC grade copper mains cable should easily outperform a Silver Electra 7."

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/chord-electronics-dave.766517/page-396#post-13065507

Regardless of only a marginal increase in conductivity, silver signal cabling seems to impart a characteristic tonality (detailed, fast, thin) that some people prefer while others do not.

 

[romaz]

How much?!?!

Well, at least you get a 5 per cent discount for two. I wonder whether this won't just amount to a very expensive paperweight after a few years when technology, and possibly the company, have moved on. Is there really any such thing as an endgame when it comes to server technology?

I think we should organize a group buy...

 

[romaz]

Is that a genuine prediction or a statement of intent? Do you really foresee yourself becoming oblivious to the latest shiny object, and not tracking what's going on in forums such as this?

A genuine prediction. Unless Rob suggests he has something big planned for CES in January, after the release of his digital amps, I'm done.

 

[hieukm]

A genuine prediction. Unless Rob suggests he has something big planned for CES in January, after the release of his digital amps, I'm done.

Dear Romaz,

Your quote is as inspiring as always. Regarding the path you taking, may i ask what you consider to be more substantial:

- Adding High Fidelity Cable
- A low power server powered by Paul Hynes Linear Power
- Other tweaks such as SOTM( clock, TX-Ultra), Mutec Ref 10 Clock.

For your taste of music, i would strongly recommend you looking into horn speaker high sensitivity to combine with your upcoming digital amps. Aries Cerat for example.