Chord Electronics - Blu Mk. 2 - The Official Thread
Mar 22, 2018 at 2:55 AM Post #3,061 of 4,904
Yes in principle! I may try later...

Oh cool. Please report back!

If there is a SMALL audible difference (important to keep perspective about these differences for others reading this) with Hugo2 unplugged from mains with Blu2, it's only something I'd do for super duper critical listening. Not day to day most likely.

Which is the same way I use my Hugo2 right now. It's powered by SMPS most days of the week and I just unplug only a few times a week.
 
Mar 22, 2018 at 11:56 AM Post #3,062 of 4,904
I've ordered a new Blu2 to pair with my Dave. I've been trying to find out how important the coax's between the Blu2 and the Dave are. In other words, how much should I invest in these cables?

Searching the Internet it seems people spend what they feel they can afford so the gamut ranges from inexpensive to something like Chord Music's. The seller of my Chord kit uses Wireworld Platinums. It would be a relatively inexpensive choice but I'm leery of a lot of silver and of a brand I've never experienced. Since my system has a full loom of Ansuz cables, I decided to stick with the brand.

I've chosen the middle of the line C2 digital coax's which should be more cable than most people use. However, I have a chance to obtain a pair of Ansuz DTC digital coax's at a price that I can't ignore. Even so, it's a good deal more than the price of the C2's.

The question I have is if I can hear the difference in these two cables in other applications would I hear it used between the Blu2/Dave pair?

Bud
 
Mar 22, 2018 at 12:32 PM Post #3,063 of 4,904
I've ordered a new Blu2 to pair with my Dave. I've been trying to find out how important the coax's between the Blu2 and the Dave are. In other words, how much should I invest in these cables?

Searching the Internet it seems people spend what they feel they can afford so the gamut ranges from inexpensive to something like Chord Music's. The seller of my Chord kit uses Wireworld Platinums. It would be a relatively inexpensive choice but I'm leery of a lot of silver and of a brand I've never experienced. Since my system has a full loom of Ansuz cables, I decided to stick with the brand.

I've chosen the middle of the line C2 digital coax's which should be more cable than most people use. However, I have a chance to obtain a pair of Ansuz DTC digital coax's at a price that I can't ignore. Even so, it's a good deal more than the price of the C2's.

The question I have is if I can hear the difference in these two cables in other applications would I hear it used between the Blu2/Dave pair?

Bud
The best and only advice is to get the Blu2, listen with some cheap but well made BNC cables (of which there are plenty around). Get used to the sound, listen for a couple of weeks. Then try adding some ferrites and see if that makes a difference. Then listen for a couple of weeks more and then, if you feel inclined get some more expensive BNC cables on a sale or return basis to try. Take it slowly like this and you will have a chance to get used to the Blu2 sound first before deciding to spend big bucks and you will have something to compare any expensive cables against.
 
Mar 22, 2018 at 1:30 PM Post #3,064 of 4,904
The best and only advice is to get the Blu2, listen with some cheap but well made BNC cables (of which there are plenty around). Get used to the sound, listen for a couple of weeks. Then try adding some ferrites and see if that makes a difference. Then listen for a couple of weeks more and then, if you feel inclined get some more expensive BNC cables on a sale or return basis to try. Take it slowly like this and you will have a chance to get used to the Blu2 sound first before deciding to spend big bucks and you will have something to compare any expensive cables against.
Thanks for the advice butI haven't the time to do that. What are you using between your Blu2/Dave pair? Do you think it's the best you could do?

I was hoping to hear from Rob Watts or someone who knows the answer to my question.

Bud
 
Mar 22, 2018 at 4:54 PM Post #3,065 of 4,904
Thanks for the advice butI haven't the time to do that. What are you using between your Blu2/Dave pair? Do you think it's the best you could do?

I was hoping to hear from Rob Watts or someone who knows the answer to my question.

Bud

Ask 10 people and you will get 10 answers on this. I am well known on here for advocating less expensive cables. I use a pair of Canare 12G-SDI 4K UHD Single-Channel BNC Cable (6') that I bought from www.bhphotovideo.com

Others will happily pay 10x or 20x this price but for me it is not worth it.

By not having the time I guess you mean that the offer of the cables you mention is time limited. Sorry, I can't help there. The BNC cables from Blu2 to Dave really are a classic YMMV situation.
 
Mar 22, 2018 at 4:55 PM Post #3,066 of 4,904
Hey Bud, there has been much discussion regarding the digital cables used to connect Blu 2 with DAVE. There is quite a lot to sort through, and comments range from there being no need to pay attention to which cables used because these components together already offer sound beyond what is otherwise possible with digital audio (at least anywhere near this price point, with some exceptions of some preferring the presentation of other devices, e.g., PS Audio). But on the other hand, there is a satisfaction found with getting the best possible performance. Rob Watts himself found that small differences are to be found with different digital cables, and even finding that 2 meter bnc cables sound better than 1 meter. I particularly like Romaz's brief account of his initial findings when first adding his Blu 2 to his setup (quoted below). If you are of the mind, and have a good opportunity for the Ansuz DTC cable, then it would appear that the truly best cables will provide an audible benefit. One point that I'm curious about, that has not really been addressed, is that if 2 meter BNC cables sound better than 1 meter lengths with regards to the higher end cables. These cables in some cases are $1,500 for two, and even more (Beolab was trying out some MIT cables costing multiples more), so it would seem that this is the limiting factor for making this determination. That there is already such a significant expense, that adding another $1,000 to the cost to find this out is unreasonable. However, it would be interesting to know. With many of these cables coming with a trial period, it would be interesting to purchase two sets in different lengths, allowing for the return of one set, to be determined after trying them.

I can see both sides to this discussion. Really great, incredible sound is good enough without being concerned over the small differences different digital cables make. Or, having already gone to such extraordinary lengths, why not make it to the summit of the mountain, when you are already so close?

To summarize, the digital cables do make an audible difference. With that information, you will need to make your own determination, as there is no consensus at present for what the 'best' cables will be. The best solution may be to select multiple sets to audition and decide which sound best to your ears, and in your system. Possibly getting them in 2 meter length as Rob himself found this to be preferable to shorter lengths. Or just pick up the Ansuz DTC cables, which will probably outperform the lesser Ansuz cables (would you have the option to audition both Ansuz cables?).

I have opted for a different solution at present. Similarly to what Romaz outlined below, I've acquired some BNC adapters (these are incredibly minimalist) to enable me to use some digital cables I already owned, but were terminated with RCA plugs. Ideally, I wouldn't need adapters, but already being in possession of some well loved digital cables, I can put the pursuit of the 'ultimate' digital cable on hold (and hopefully learn over time what those cables might be), to allow me to focus on more pressing matters. I really need a new amplifier to allow the BluDave to produce the sound they are capable of. That is my current need, and I am actively addressing this.
Good luck!

IMG_20180322_105448.jpg

Thanks for the advice butI haven't the time to do that. What are you using between your Blu2/Dave pair? Do you think it's the best you could do?

I was hoping to hear from Rob Watts or someone who knows the answer to my question.

Bud
My Blu2 arrived earlier in the week and has settled in nicely. I have moved to Chord's stands. I'm not sure that they perform any better but they certainly look very nice.



Happily, Blu2 is better than I remember. The markedly improved dynamic contrasts, both macro and micro, compared against DAVE alone are what immediately grabbed my attention when I first heard it at CES in January and so I was fully expecting this yet upon hearing it for the first time in my system at home, the separation was, nonetheless, eye opening. The leading edge is more incisive and the attack has more weight and yet there is a greater sense of ease and effortlessness. There is also a greater sense of air and space leading to a more dimensional sound stage and improved layering of detail. The tonal bouquet is richer and truer. The overall presentation is considerably smoother and more refined and this is as evident on headphones as it is on speakers. Back in January, I commented that I had never witnessed DAVE so easily brought to its knees and that opinion holds just as true now. It really has become hard to listen to DAVE now without Blu2. Some have suggested the gap between DAVE and BluDave is larger than the gap between DAVE and Mojo and having now done this comparison, I would have to agree.

All was not perfect upon first listen, however. There was a HF harshness that was inescapable. I traced it to the stock BNC SPDIF cables that came with Blu2 because swapping in my cheap $32 Blue Jeans Cables BNC cables immediately resolved some of this harshness. With time, these stock BNC cables have improved somewhat and so I suspect they require break-in. I have a couple sets of High Fidelity Cables (HFC) digital cables at my disposal including a pair of CT-1UR ($9k) and Pro Series ($19k) SPDIF cables. Unfortunately, these HFC cables are RCA-terminated and so I have to make do with RCA-to-BNC adapters although these adapters made by Purist Audio Design seem to be of very high material quality ($600 for 4). Disappointingly, I could not get either set of HFC cables to work and the sampling rate indicator on DAVE's screen just flashes erratically. I'm not yet sure if its the adapters or the HFC cables that are the problem and so this will require further investigation but I suspect it may be an impedance issue. Interestingly, these cables and adapters work fine when I connect a SPDIF source directly into the BNC input of DAVE and the improvement they convey is remarkable in this instance. In the meantime, I had another pair of 75 ohm BNC cables to try from Habst, a German brand that I use for my Mutec REF10 External Master Clock. These 0.5m cables utilize cryo'd high purity silver with extremely heavy shielding and cost me 700 Euros each. The improvement is immediately evident and not at all subtle with respect to a lowered noise floor and improved detail clarity. For sure, a haze has been lifted and It's not even close and furthermore, that HF harshness is now completely gone. Maybe the ferrite filters will work just as well. I expect to order some and if the performance is there, I will be happy not to spend more money on BNC cables. Bottom line, these cables matter. The fact that these cables can be expensive is irrelevant, imo.

Regarding how this improvement that Blu2 brings about compares against the improvement brought about by my purpose-built server with replaced clocks and powered by Paul Hynes' power supplies, I am unable to make this direct comparison at this time as that system is undergoing further modification although I expect to receive it back shortly. Without question, Blu2 brings about an improvement in resolution that cannot be matched and so in this regard, Blu2 is without peer, however, the "buttery smoothness" that caught my attention after replacing 8 clocks in my upstream chain of digital components is not present to the same degree with Blu2 by itself, that I am sure about. Also, it's very clear to me that CD playback from Blu2 is presently superior to what I am getting from my Mac Mini and Windows laptop connected to Blu2 via USB. Comparing a Diana Krall track played back on CD with Blu2 against the same track ripped to my computer and against the same track streamed from Tidal, there is a definite improvement in smoothness, detail clarity and immediacy from CD playback. This doesn't come as a complete surprise as a direct stream from Blu2's transport to M-scaler occurs without the noise issues inherent in a more complex computer server and without the harmful impact brought about by external cabling. Nonetheless, this disparity among bit-perfect sources suggests to me that my highly modified source will make a notable difference even with Blu2 in the chain.

Regarding the obscene cost of certain items, especially cables, once again, you'll find no disagreement from me about how this leaves a bad taste in the mouth although as I evaluate a piece of equipment, I try not to initially factor in cost but rather assess that piece of equipment solely on its merit. If the performance of a component is superior to its competition, what it costs shouldn't change that fact. This audiophile hobby unfortunately is not a rational one. Many here will cry foul that a company like Kubala Sosna can charge $3,500 for a USB cable and get away with it but I'm sure there are many out there that question the wisdom of buying an $11k Chord DAVE when surely, DAVE isn't 3,700x better than the $3 DAC that comes in an iPhone. Even against Hugo 2, DAVE isn't 5x better and so who's spending silly money now? As has been said of audiophiles, "we're all Bozos on this bus." Some will argue that it's ridiculous to look at a cable as equivalent in importance to a component like DAVE or Blu2. I respectfully disagree. The differences I have heard between 2 different sets of analog interconnects in one particular instance was notably greater than the difference between 2 amplifiers made by the same company that were $35,000 apart in price. While no cable by itself can do what DAVE or Blu2 can, neither DAVE nor Blu2 can function without cables and bad cables can definitely hobble any system and so I look at cables not as a finishing touch but as important as any component, especially if resolution and transparency are the goal. I think everything matters and in many systems that I listen to, far too often, it is the cables that are the limiting factor. The problem with this hobby is that it is fueled by one's emotional engagement to an ideal that can never be fully realized and so it leaves us as easy prey for many who are looking to take advantage. At the same time, equipment built to the exacting standards of many audiophiles can be very expensive and so it's not a given that all audio equipment manufacturers are driving Bentleys. I know for a fact that even the owner of HFC can't afford some of his own top level cables (his new Pro Elite RCA interconnects sell for $60k). Sometimes, materials costs are exorbitant.

Regarding who's right and who's wrong, I try to never look at it this way. This is not some competition but rather a reporting of observations. I enjoy friendly and spirited debate among gentlemen (or ladies) and even when I am on the losing end of a debate, I am grateful for the lessons learned and for the perspectives contributed by others. I'd like to think that even with people who don't share my views, at the end of the day, we can share an ale and a laugh. This is, after all, just a hobby. It's never personal. As @Jawed has wisely stated, we each have different systems and so it shouldn't be unusual that we might hear different things. I have also been fortunate to have access to try many things and because of my curiosity, I often take advantage of my opportunities and so my experience, having listened to several dozen different cables over a broad price range might be different from someone else who perhaps has listened to a fewer number of cables over a narrower price range. I don't claim to have ears that are better than anyone else's but ultimately, it is my ears that I have to answer to regardless of what anyone tells me I should or shouldn't be hearing. If I can't hear a difference, I'm happy to move on but if I can, then I have to decide the significance of that difference and what I'm willing to pay for it. I think we're all the same in this regard and I think we each owe it to ourselves to decide for ourselves.

I'll close by sharing this recent experience as it provides perspective. Not too long ago, I paid a visit to the Magico factory in Hayward, California near San Francisco. Here is a photo of their soon-to-be released M6 speaker. This speaker will sell for $175,000 per pair when released in a few months. For perspective, their Magico Ultimate currently sell for $600k per pair.



I was forbidden from taking photos of their listening room that day as they had gear exposed that they did not want photographed but here is a stock photo that one can find on the internet. This listening room is perhaps among the finest listening rooms in the world with regards to acoustics. It is completely symmetrical and has no parallel walls. As you would imagine, no expense was spared in its design and implementation as this is how they test and voice their speakers:



Being situated in the Bay area, this company is partial to Berkeley DACs which is headquartered nearby. Other electronics include a Baetis Reference music server and pre-amplification and amplification by CH Precision. When they wish to hear just how good their system can sound, they spin vinyl. They don't believe their digital system sounds as good. Having heard both the latest Berkeley Reference 2 and the Baetis Reference music server before, I'm not surprised but if I am to be honest, even DAVE (without Blu2) doesn't sound as good as the very best vinyl presentations that I've heard recently. Regarding their cabling, Magico are not in the cable business and so they have nothing to gain by spending unnecessarily on cables that don't make a difference. This is, after all, their lab. Having discussed this with them, I can also assure you they didn't choose their cabling based on looks nor did they spend only 50£ on cables. In fact, they spent what they thought was necessary to achieve maximum performance from their speakers and the MIT Oracle Matrix SHO speaker cabling they chose sell for about $30k for an 8 foot pair. Just how magnificent did this room sound? It is perhaps the finest audio experience I have ever had with regards to the reproduction of a large orchestral performance at full scale. Despite such high praise, is this system more resolving than what I have at home? With Blu2 and with DAVE directly driving my speakers, I'm not so sure, at least not by every measure. Despite the fact that this system in this room approaches a 7-figure price tag, I did not hear the layering of detail to the degree that I hear in my own system and I believe that such is the compromise you accept when forced to use transparency-robbing megawatt amplifiers. Even the very best outboard amplifiers will never have the full combination of bandwidth, noise floor, speed and dynamic range as DAVE driving speakers directly and so such is the revolution that Rob's upcoming digital amps will introduce. Regardless, if my system is at least as resolving as this system, why shouldn't my system deserve the same consideration in cabling that this system has?
 
Mar 23, 2018 at 1:44 PM Post #3,067 of 4,904
I've ordered a new Blu2 to pair with my Dave. I've been trying to find out how important the coax's between the Blu2 and the Dave are. In other words, how much should I invest in these cables?

Searching the Internet it seems people spend what they feel they can afford so the gamut ranges from inexpensive to something like Chord Music's. The seller of my Chord kit uses Wireworld Platinums. It would be a relatively inexpensive choice but I'm leery of a lot of silver and of a brand I've never experienced. Since my system has a full loom of Ansuz cables, I decided to stick with the brand.

I've chosen the middle of the line C2 digital coax's which should be more cable than most people use. However, I have a chance to obtain a pair of Ansuz DTC digital coax's at a price that I can't ignore. Even so, it's a good deal more than the price of the C2's.

The question I have is if I can hear the difference in these two cables in other applications would I hear it used between the Blu2/Dave pair?

Bud
I’m assuming by your user name Semper Fi is in order!
Don’t be put off by cables with silver in their construction. High frequencies travel on the skin of the conductor, silver oxide is conductive copper oxide is an insulator. Once copper oxidizes it effects the high frequency performance of a cable. All things being equal a silver cable will perform better for a longer time than copper. This is assuming sterling silver, coin or nickel silver has a fair amount of nickel a ferrous metal causing IM distortion so buyer beware!
Between Blu2 and Dave tweeking cable’s is noticeable but small differences. I’m happy with the performance of my Clearer Audio coax and Fair Rite 61 ferrites see previous posts
 
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Mar 23, 2018 at 1:49 PM Post #3,068 of 4,904
Interesting about your Ferrites, can I ask where you bought them?
 
Mar 23, 2018 at 2:11 PM Post #3,069 of 4,904
I’m assuming by your user name Semper Fi is in order!
Don’t be put off by cables with silver in their construction. High frequencies travel on the skin of the conductor, silver oxide is conductive copper oxide is an insulator. Once copper oxidizes it effects the high frequency performance of a cable.
Between Blu2 and Dave tweeking cable’s is noticeable but small differences. I’m happy with the performance of my Clearer Audio coax and Fair Rite 61 ferrites see previous posts

There was a time when I purged my system of any cable using silver because unless it’s done right it can be very tiresome. Now I don’t worry about it with brands I trust (Ansuz, Chord, etc.). I have no experience with Wireworld so I’m wasn’t going to waste my time with it.

I have made a decision on cables, I’ve ordered a pair of Ansuz C2’s and I’m waiting for them to get here from Denmark. I’ve assumed they will be the equal of about anything except more expensive Ansuz cables.

So I’m waiting for my black Blu2 to be built and shipped to me. I was offered the chance to buy a stand made for dealers that is a bit higher than the medium high stand usually used to pair the Blu with the Dave. It’s on the way to me. Hopefully, I’ll have everything in 3 weeks.

Bud
 
Mar 24, 2018 at 3:48 AM Post #3,071 of 4,904
Has anyone on here made their own BNC cables for the Blu2 / Dave?

I was just thinking of having a go on the basis of it looking pretty simple. Simpler possibly than making my own XLR analogue cables anyway, which is what I do now. I admit the analogue cables took weeks of experiment to find the best sounding and best measuring cable construction / configuration but in the end I had cables which to my ears anyway sound quite a bit better than Chord Sarum Super Aray.

After a couple of glasses of red stuff even I have looked at the group buy on here for the expensive BNC cables. But I keep coming back to thinking that surely it is just about mating a really good 75ohm cable with a really good 75ohm BNC connector. Like I say, on the face of it, it looks simpler than designing really good analogue cables.

So, has anyone tried making their own BNC cables? And what results did you get between Blu2 and Dave?
 
Mar 24, 2018 at 5:09 AM Post #3,072 of 4,904
Has anyone on here made their own BNC cables for the Blu2 / Dave?

I was just thinking of having a go on the basis of it looking pretty simple. Simpler possibly than making my own XLR analogue cables anyway, which is what I do now. I admit the analogue cables took weeks of experiment to find the best sounding and best measuring cable construction / configuration but in the end I had cables which to my ears anyway sound quite a bit better than Chord Sarum Super Aray.

After a couple of glasses of red stuff even I have looked at the group buy on here for the expensive BNC cables. But I keep coming back to thinking that surely it is just about mating a really good 75ohm cable with a really good 75ohm BNC connector. Like I say, on the face of it, it looks simpler than designing really good analogue cables.

So, has anyone tried making their own BNC cables? And what results did you get between Blu2 and Dave?
Yes I originally made 2 different pairs one a Belden cable, foil braid foil braid and I added another copper braid over it better than stock but not as good as the CA cable
The second pair was semi rigid cable with a copper braid over it better than the stock cable not as good as the CA cable. Both I used mil-spec Trompeter BNC’s Both are copper construction.
I popped the $$$ for the CA cables because not just me but half a dozen others picked the CA’s over the rest.
After a long discussion with a EE friend (Bell Labs, designed VLSI chips) it’s the configuration and the materials used, you get reduced rf but you also get more detail and hf extension this is not more rf it’s more detail (silver oxide being conductive and copper oxide being an insulator Plus 6 shields foil braid foil braid foil braid)
Let’s see the opinions of the group but when they get a chance to hear them.
 
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Mar 24, 2018 at 5:33 AM Post #3,073 of 4,904
Yes I originally made 2 different pairs one a Belden cable, foil braid foil braid and I added another copper braid over it better than stock but not as good as the CA cable
The second pair was semi rigid cable with a copper braid over it better than the stock cable not as good as the CA cable. Both I used mil-spec Trompeter BNC’s Both are copper construction.
I popped the $$$ for the CA cables because not just me but half a dozen others picked the CA’s over the rest.
After a long discussion with a EE friend (Bell Labs, designed VLSI chips) it’s the configuration and the materials used, you get reduced rf but you also get more detail and hf extension this is not more rf it’s more detail (silver oxide being conductive and copper oxide being an insulator Plus 6 shields foil braid foil braid foil braid)
Let’s see the opinions of the group but when they get a chance to hear them.

Yes, agree it is often about the materials and configuration. My analogue cables definitely altered with quite subtle differences in the configuration.

I will make some bnc cables using what I have learned and then maybe we can have a bake off against some CA ones if I can find someone near me in the uk with CA cables.

My desire in doing this is not just to save money, it is maybe to make something better than other cables.
 
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Mar 24, 2018 at 5:52 AM Post #3,074 of 4,904
Yes, agree it is often about the materials and configuration. My analogue cables definitely altered with quite subtle differences in the configuration.

I will make some bnc cables using what I have learned and then maybe we can have a bake off against some CA ones if I can find someone near me in the uk with CA cables.[/QUOT
Yes, agree it is often about the materials and configuration. My analogue cables definitely altered with quite subtle differences in the configuration.

I will make some bnc cables using what I have learned and then maybe we can have a bake off against some CA ones if I can find someone near me in the uk with CA cables.
if I have time I’ll make another
Yes, agree it is often about the materials and configuration. My analogue cables definitely altered with quite subtle differences in the configuration.

I will make some bnc cables using what I have learned and then maybe we can have a bake off against some CA ones if I can find someone near me in the uk with CA cables.

My desire in doing this is not just to save money, it is maybe to make something better than other cables.
yes my motivation too BUT imagine the investment in a custom run of silver conductor silver plated copper foil and braid coax cable. I’d rater reward CA for making the investment and taking the financial risk. BTW the CA coax is the first I purchased in over 20 years. Before the CA’s I could build them from off the shelf cable that bettered most until the Black Kats and now the CA’s I admitted defeat!
 
Mar 24, 2018 at 6:54 AM Post #3,075 of 4,904
if I have time I’ll make another

yes my motivation too BUT imagine the investment in a custom run of silver conductor silver plated copper foil and braid coax cable. I’d rater reward CA for making the investment and taking the financial risk. BTW the CA coax is the first I purchased in over 20 years. Before the CA’s I could build them from off the shelf cable that bettered most until the Black Kats and now the CA’s I admitted defeat!

Probably another conversation for another time or place ie PM, but I found that coax was not the route to go for interconnects. Also, careful and exact measurement of low level LCR characteristics of cables can reveal a lot about how they will sound. All good fun.
 

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