Chips for Noob

[VNandor]

Holy crap, I feel lesser than a Noob.. I feel really dumb reading all the comments..

I don’t understand

It seems like you are not alone with that.

Both of you guys haven’t even mentioned anything about how those two dac/amps sound with HD800S. Not clipping at 70dB average listening level (as to not clip) doesn’t tell me anything whatsoever between how those two sounds

It does not sound clipped at all, I can tell you that much. It won't clip or be close to clipping even at the max volume setting and the US version will reach ear-damaging levels easily with a lot of music which explains why the EU version is limited to 0.5Vrms. I don't give a cr@p about the mojo or the apple dongle, I just dislike that you insist an amp with a low output voltage is somehow not enough and would clip because you don't understand how amps work and then make some stupid and potentially dangerous comments based on that. Do you think everyone listens to clipped music who runs their amp at 1V peaks? Have you ever checked the peak levels on your amp while listening to music?

 

[colonelkernel8]

Both of you guys haven’t even mentioned anything about how those two dac/amps sound with HD800S. Not clipping at 70dB average listening level (as to not clip) doesn’t tell me anything whatsoever between how those two sounds

Way to pivot away to the motte (so what if it doesn't clip, how does it sOuNd?) from your bailey (the Apple dongle "clipping" at low listening levels).

 

[VNandor]

That sounds like BS to me. Volume limitation in the EU-designated devices will not be based on a voltage limiter, but rather a gain limiter. Compteletely different implementation with a completely different effect, there will be no "clipping" at 0.5V.

EDIT: I see that @VNandor just explained this in more detail already.

Maybe the misunderstanding is there! The voltage limiting is not done by chopping off the waveform at 0.5V. It is done by scaling down everything properly to the point where the peak sits at 0.5V, just like how a volume pot does it.

@theveterans
If you sit down in front of an amp with a low max output voltage but determined to make it output a high enough voltage to make a high impedance headphone reach 115dB, what ends up happening is that you turn volume knob to max and the headphone doesn't reach 115dB and there will be no clipping. That is because the amp's designers (at least the ones at Apple) wouldn't want to risk clipping every single time the pot is set at the max. They limit the max output voltage below clipping by setting a proper voltage gain. As an example, if an amp had a max rated input voltage at 1V peak and the output clipped at 2V peak, they would let the volume knob to set the gain between 0 and close but decidedly less than 2. If you somehow managed to raise the gain through sheer force of will beyond what the volume pot let you set, the output would indeed get clipped and you could eventually reach your desired loudness target albeit with a lot of clipping. But that second part is entirely theoretical, and my first sentence is what would end up happening.

 

[2leftears]

Holy crap, I feel lesser than a Noob.. I feel really dumb reading all the comments..

I don’t understand

Well, you posted your question in the Sound Science forum. Almost every thread in the Sound Science forum will end up with a few regular members having an argument

Both of you guys haven’t even mentioned anything about how those two dac/amps sound with HD800S. Not clipping at 70dB average listening level (as to not clip) doesn’t tell me anything whatsoever between how those two sounds

I need to charge my iPhone, but I have an iPhone XS, an HD800 (predates the HD800S just a bit but near identical), and I have the Apple 3.5mm Jack DAC/Amp dongle.

Weill let you know once the phone is charged up.

 

[VNandor]

Way to pivot away to the motte (so what if it doesn't clip, how does it sOuNd?) from your bailey (the Apple dongle "clipping" at low listening levels).

Just to be clear, it would not clip with the HD800s at high listening levels either. There's nothing that would cause it to clip, the gain staging of the dongle is fine, it can't be driven to voltage clipping and even at the max voltage, it would be at around the 10% of its output power with the HD800s.

 

[colonelkernel8]

Just to be clear, it would not clip with the HD800s at high listening levels either. There's nothing that would cause it to clip, the gain staging of the dongle is fine, it can't be driven to voltage clipping and even at the max voltage, it would be at around the 10% of its output power with the HD800s.

Very much aware. My point was they were unable to defend the clipping dongle argument so they pivoted to something they can actually (attempt to) defend, which is apparently how the dongle makes the music sound, which of course means a bunch of subjective BS.

 

[colonelkernel8]

Haha, great analogy. More DAC chips can lower noise and improve detail, like more chefs in a kitchen. Helps if done right, but not always better.

No. No it does not "improve detail". At least not audibly to a human being. The whole source for this multi-dac chip paradigm comes from lab equipment and early digital audio (before there were 16 bit DACs or ADCs). Putting 8 ADC/DAC chips together to get your noise floor below -140dB is probably useful for ultra sensitive, precision measurements of extremely low amplitude signals, but it's useless for audio reproduction in the modern day.

 

[2leftears]

Both of you guys haven’t even mentioned anything about how those two dac/amps sound with HD800S. Not clipping at 70dB average listening level (as to not clip) doesn’t tell me anything whatsoever between how those two sounds

OK, I have just tried with the Sennheiser HD800 (slightly different tuning to the HD800S, but near similar specs), on an iPhone XS, with the Apple $10 DAC/Amp dongle. I don't have a Mojo 2, so that exact comparison I cannot do, but I have compared it with a Marantz HD-DAC1 for the latter two of the below tracks.

Sounds fine, no noticeable difference compared to my other DAC and sources for the same tracks. I can play it at a volume that would have me worried about long-term hearing damage, which is more than loud enough. No distortion, no clipping, just a transparent DAC/Amp sound.

In case you were wondering, the tracks I just tried:

 

[lewenborg23]

So multible chips doesn’t make the music sound better? More details? Wider soundstage?

 

[2leftears]

So multible chips doesn’t make the music sound better? More details? Wider soundstage?

You are going to get even more confused; when you ask the question like that, perception and expectation bias start to play a part.

The actual sound (as in the acoustic pressure waves) is not affected to a degree that is audible.

But concepts such as "sounds better", "more details", "wider soundstage" are perceptual qualifications. The average audiophile who spent good money on a DAC with multiple chips is likely to hear an 'improvement' in the music, which is almost certainly entirely down to expectation bias and psychoacoustics because most good modern DACs are transparent (as in do not alter the sound).

In effect you are tricking/fooling yourself into hearing a difference that isn't actually audible; the question is whether you think that self-deception is worth the extra tens or hundreds of Euros.

 

[BS5711]

OK, I have just tried with the Sennheiser HD800 (slightly different tuning to the HD800S, but near similar specs), on an iPhone XS, with the Apple $10 DAC/Amp dongle. I don't have a Mojo 2, so that exact comparison I cannot do, but I have compared it with a Marantz HD-DAC1 for the latter two of the below tracks.

Sounds fine, no noticeable difference compared to my other DAC and sources for the same tracks. I can play it at a volume that would have me worried about long-term hearing damage, which is more than loud enough. No distortion, no clipping, just a transparent DAC/Amp sound.

I don't have HD800S or an Apple Dongle or a Mojo 2 but I have stuff very close.

HD600 with the same 300 ohms and slightly lower sensitivity to the 800S

ddhifi TC35C with a whopping 30mw on tap into 32 ohms

Chord Mojo original which has the same power specs as the Mojo 2.

I did a casual listen with the little TC35C plugged into my iPhone 15 with it at maximum volume there was just completely normal somewhat loud music, no indication of any struggle for voltage even with bass heavy music.

I plugged into the Mojo and it also sounded fine.

Then, for the sake of fairness and complete transparency I set up a switchbox blind volume matched comparison between the TC35C and the Mojo and over 5 minutes of casual back and forth there was nothing that stood out to me that was different in the music presentation.

Could there have been something subtle if listening to a tiny selected part of a track to highlight something, maybe, but in normal listening as I would do as I work from my home office there was nothing to differentiate them.

 

[VNandor]

HD600 with the same 300 ohms and slightly lower sensitivity to the 800S

The HD600 is supposed to be 5dB less sensitive according to what's published by Sennheiser but I honestly never heard such a massive difference between them especially when listening to music instead of just checking with the 1kHz tone they used in the spec.

 

[theveterans]

So multible chips doesn’t make the music sound better? More details? Wider soundstage?

IMHO, instead of asking, why not go to a dealer to try them out for yourself

 

[2leftears]

So multible chips doesn’t make the music sound better? More details? Wider soundstage?

IMHO, instead of asking, why not go to a dealer to try them out for yourself

You can't find that out at a dealer. Two DACs will likely sound different at a dealer. No way of telling whether that is the multiple DAC chips, some other differences between the DACs that are nothing to do with the use of multiple chips, or even the dealer 'helping you' hear a difference where there is none.

This is a question that needs to be addressed in a properly conducted test environment where any proven audible differences (if any!) can be properly attributed to the use of multiple DAC chips, with statistical significance. From the theoretical side the science suggest the use of multiple DAC chips does not result in an audible difference.

 

[danadam]

The HD600 is supposed to be 5dB less sensitive according to what's published by Sennheiser but I honestly never heard such a massive difference between them especially when listening to music instead of just checking with the 1kHz tone they used in the spec.

HD 650 has 103 dB (1V) published by Sennheiser, so 97 dB for HD 600 is probably a mistake. Or it could efficiency (dBSPL/1mW) instead of sensitivity.