[DrJustice]

I've just got a DT-880 Edition 250 Ohm headset. My DAP is a Fiio X 5 III.

I was previously using a pair of DT-901s (closed back, 250 Ohm) with the X5iii. Very nice, but they're old, not that mechanically solid and they creak a bit when I walk with them on my head, so I got the DT-880 based on their reputation.

The 901s played loud enough with the X5iii at a volume of 85/120. With the 880s I need to bump the volume to 95/120, so they're not as efficient. Volume above 100 is too loud for me, so it appears the the X5iii amplifier is enough, driving the cans with a clean sound. I.e. I do not need more volume and I can't hear any distortion

But then I keep reading ow you MUST use an amp with the DT-880s to get good sound, even for the 32 Ohm model. The X5iii specs does mention its power output in 300 Ohm, so I'd think it's meant to be usable with that. Still I'd be interested in hearing what an amp could do. Unfortunately very few portable amps seem to be specced for high impedances.

So I was thinking that maybe I'll get a cheap amp just to see if there's anything to gain sound wise. I'm a skeptic though, and I know physics and electronics, so I'm very wary of hi-fi myths/silly-terms, and quite comfy with an engineering approach with facts and figures (which in itself questions whether an amp will actually improve anything...). Another amp stage will of course degrade the sound a little in some aspects (S/N, THD), so that has to be factored in too.

I've found some possible el-chapo candidates on Amazon, fully aware that some are generic multi-brand clones-of-clones boxes and that they're probably not very HQ in their mechanical construction:

Neoteck / eSynic
GBP 30-40. Claiming to be able to drive up to 500 Ohm, and using and OPA2140. Sold under the Neoteck and eSynic names.

LIAM and DAAN
GBP 33. Seen this one around a lot.

LinkFOR
GBP 20. Suspiciously cheap, even some zon reviewers complained about quality, may have smaller battery than stated... Also sold under eSynic name and possibly others.

Or would I need to step up to something like a Fiio A5 for this experiment to be sensible? Although I've read that it doesn't do well with high impedances either (this is the net, so diametrically opposed "facts" & opinions are to be expected :-D )

Does anyone have any experience with any of these or similar el-cheapo amps with high impedance headsets? I don't need a DAC, so prefer not to pay for one. Experiences with just the DT-880 250 Ohm on the X5iii are also appreciated. Could be I'm just fine (even better off...) without an amp - the X5ii does drive the DT-880 without any distortion and at an adequate sound level with the volume at < 100/120(?)

TIA!

 

[DrJustice]

No takers? OK, I will go further.

A widely made claim I'm reading is that without an (extra) amp the DT-880, or high impedance / low efficiency cans in general, will sound "anemic", which I suspect is meant as "weak bass" or "lack of dynamics".

It's only when your amplifier actually runs out of juice and starts to clip that it will distort and change the harmonic content of the signal. Before that happens, the frequency response would remain the same if the amp was DC coupled. If the amp is AC coupled, it is being high pass filtered, and a higher impedance load will give MORE bass, not less since a series RC circuit has a corner frequency of 1 / (2 * PI * R * C). So, to get any advantage from extra amplification, you'd have to have loaded your old amp so hard that it clips, and/or your new amp would have a bigger AC coupling capacitor to give more bass (less "anemia"?). Right?

Yes, we're in sanity check land now ) Any EE hi-fi enthusiasts out there who care to comment?

 

[PaganDL]

I've just got a DT-880 Edition 250 Ohm headset. My DAP is a Fiio X 5 III.

I was previously using a pair of DT-901s (closed back, 250 Ohm) with the X5iii. Very nice, but they're old, not that mechanically solid and they creak a bit when I walk with them on my head, so I got the DT-880 based on their reputation.

The 901s played loud enough with the X5iii at a volume of 85/120. With the 880s I need to bump the volume to 95/120, so they're not as efficient. Volume above 100 is too loud for me, so it appears the the X5iii amplifier is enough, driving the cans with a clean sound. I.e. I do not need more volume and I can't hear any distortion

But then I keep reading ow you MUST use an amp with the DT-880s to get good sound, even for the 32 Ohm model. The X5iii specs does mention its power output in 300 Ohm, so I'd think it's meant to be usable with that. Still I'd be interested in hearing what an amp could do. Unfortunately very few portable amps seem to be specced for high impedances.

So I was thinking that maybe I'll get a cheap amp just to see if there's anything to gain sound wise. I'm a skeptic though, and I know physics and electronics, so I'm very wary of hi-fi myths/silly-terms, and quite comfy with an engineering approach with facts and figures (which in itself questions whether an amp will actually improve anything...). Another amp stage will of course degrade the sound a little in some aspects (S/N, THD), so that has to be factored in too.

I've found some possible el-chapo candidates on Amazon, fully aware that some are generic multi-brand clones-of-clones boxes and that they're probably not very HQ in their mechanical construction:

Neoteck / eSynic
GBP 30-40. Claiming to be able to drive up to 500 Ohm, and using and OPA2140. Sold under the Neoteck and eSynic names.

LIAM and DAAN
GBP 33. Seen this one around a lot.

LinkFOR
GBP 20. Suspiciously cheap, even some zon reviewers complained about quality, may have smaller battery than stated... Also sold under eSynic name and possibly others.

Or would I need to step up to something like a Fiio A5 for this experiment to be sensible? Although I've read that it doesn't do well with high impedances either (this is the net, so diametrically opposed "facts" & opinions are to be expected :-D )

Does anyone have any experience with any of these or similar el-cheapo amps with high impedance headsets? I don't need a DAC, so prefer not to pay for one. Experiences with just the DT-880 250 Ohm on the X5iii are also appreciated. Could be I'm just fine (even better off...) without an amp - the X5ii does drive the DT-880 without any distortion and at an adequate sound level with the volume at < 100/120(?)

TIA!

@DrJustice,

Impedance isn't the only thing you should or need to consider, especially when using high impedance headphones like your 250 Ohms DT 880, head amps do a number of things to a headphone sound aside from just making a headphone louder, other factors include staging, imaging, dynamics, clarity, etc

So in answer to part of your question, a headphone with 32 Ohms doesn't necessarily need a head amp to sound good as there are other factors aside from the ones just outlined above to consider but it does help.
Another thing which needs to be considered is how much actual current &/or voltage a head amp can put out for your headphone, regardless of headphone impedance, amp power or wattage.
The 'fun' part is current &/or voltage is usually not listed or easily worked out, even if some formula can be derived from specs.
Your source will factor into this as well so if your source doesn't output good current in the first place, it's not going to matter whether the amp is cheap or not or even if it has a better current &/or voltage.

As a general rule, DAPs, if output to an amp, average about 80 db to 100 db to avoid possible distortion or feedback then use said amp to control overall volume.

For this head amp you're looking at, do you require it to be portable or are you using the whole set up as a stationary rig at a desk?
Most head amps can handle up to 300 ohms or beyond, it just depends on how they are built.
I have no idea about the amps mentioned, spec wise or use but have heard of them...

I suggest looking into the following head amps instead in no particular order :

Presonus HP 4
Periodic Audio Nickel
Fiio BTR 5

There are certainly others but these come to mind for your requirements.

Hope you have a great day !

 

[CTR640]

Also the SPL nominance in dB plays an important role too. My DT880 250ohm has low volume while my Amiron Home 250ohm can get really loud.
DT880 is 96dB and Amiron Home is 102dB. But the Amiron Home has Tesla drivers.

 

[DrJustice]

Thanks for chiming in, PaganDL!

..head amps do a number of things to a headphone sound aside from just making a headphone louder, other factors include staging, imaging, dynamics, clarity, etc

Yes, of course. I thought it best to look away from those finer aspects for this question, and focus on the drive capability and FR.

Another thing which needs to be considered is how much actual current &/or voltage a head amp can put out for your headphone, regardless of headphone impedance, amp power or wattage.

Well, the DAP itself has these specs for the 3.5mm TRS output:
Max power: >= 26mW @ 300Ohm
Max voltage: 8V pp
Max current: 250mA

With the DT-880s being 250 Ohm and having a sensitivity of 96dB/mW that should in theory be enough to reach painful levels (ok, that is individual, I don't dare play too loud - I want to have resonable hearing into my old age)

Using this Headphone Power Calculator for the DT-880s gives:

Level	dB	Vrms	mA	mW
Safe	85​	0.14​	0.56​	0.08​
Moderate	100​	0.79​	3.16​	2.50​
Fairly Loud	110​	2.51​	10.04​	25.20​
Very Loud	115​	4.46​	17.84​	79.57​
Painful	120​	7.93​	31.72​	251.54​

According to that I should be able to play more than "Fairly Loud" before the amp packs in, gets short on power and starts to distort (or get "anemic"...?).

For this head amp you're looking at, do you require it to be portable or are you using the whole set up as a stationary rig at a desk?

This is for a portable setup. I'll research the amps you mentioned. I mighty also try to do some listening tests and FR measurements using various headphone amps in my amps/converters/mixers at home to find out if the anemia hypothesis holds water.

I'm still interested in some EE certified sanity checks though, and if I'm found to be sane I might just work on the EQ to flatten the 880s a bit more and simply enjoy the music

 

[DrJustice]

...my Amiron Home 250ohm can get really loud.

Wouldn't mind a pair of those. That would certainly be loud enough with another 6 dB in efficiency. I'm on a budget though, and just got the 880s for allround use, including with the DAP. Hence the interest in a dirt-cheap try-out amp, or maybe simply finding out if that isn't necessary.

 

[CTR640]

Wouldn't mind a pair of those. That would certainly be loud enough with another 6 dB in efficiency. I'm on a budget though, and just got the 880s for allround use, including with the DAP. Hence the interest in a dirt-cheap try-out amp, or maybe simply finding out if that isn't necessary.

The Amiron Home has become my main headphone aside with the Amiron Wireless but that's on a whole different price range

I had the Fiio E10K to power my DT880 and when upgraded to Fiio K5 Pro, the sound has improved so much. Especially when using the Amiron Home, sound has become so much vivid, lively and bass is very detailed too. I tried the Amiron Home with my Huawei Smart Z and the sound is...very crap. But I use the phone only purely for calling and sms anyway. And the built-in DAC in my Huawei Mate 20X, the sound is damn good.

So far PaganDL has suggested better options. The Fiio BTR series are one of the most popular ones if you need bluetooth.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

The 901s played loud enough with the X5iii at a volume of 85/120. With the 880s I need to bump the volume to 95/120, so they're not as efficient. Volume above 100 is too loud for me, so it appears the the X5iii amplifier is enough, driving the cans with a clean sound. I.e. I do not need more volume and I can't hear any distortion

Depending on the impedance it might have more to do with how much lower the power output is at 250ohms vs for example if the 901 is at 120ohms and below since battery powered amps - and heck even some desktop amps, just that battery amps tend to do worse - drastically drop off in output at high impedance loads.

But then I keep reading ow you MUST use an amp with the DT-880s to get good sound, even for the 32 Ohm model. The X5iii specs does mention its power output in 300 Ohm, so I'd think it's meant to be usable with that.

28mW at 300ohms, <1% THD+N (SE)
26mW at 300ohms, <1% THD+N (Bal)
https://www.fiio.com/x5iii_parameters

Still I'd be interested in hearing what an amp could do. Unfortunately very few portable amps seem to be specced for high impedances.

Very generally you need a lot of voltage to maintain power output at high impedance loads, and if your source is a 7.2V to 9V battery, that's gonna be tough.

Even some dual 9V powered amps might usually use those two like a dual mono power than to simply up the DC voltage.

So I was thinking that maybe I'll get a cheap amp just to see if there's anything to gain sound wise. I'm a skeptic though, and I know physics and electronics, so I'm very wary of hi-fi myths/silly-terms, and quite comfy with an engineering approach with facts and figures (which in itself questions whether an amp will actually improve anything...). Another amp stage will of course degrade the sound a little in some aspects (S/N, THD), so that has to be factored in too.

I've found some possible el-chapo candidates on Amazon, fully aware that some are generic multi-brand clones-of-clones boxes and that they're probably not very HQ in their mechanical construction:

Neoteck / eSynic
GBP 30-40. Claiming to be able to drive up to 500 Ohm, and using and OPA2140. Sold under the Neoteck and eSynic names.

There's marketing to be wary about.

In mechanical engineering terms it's like how a BMW 5-series made as an airport cab in Germany has a tiny 2.5L inline6 (or smaller in Asia I think), and such engines can technically run a sedan that size, in the sense that it can zip from the airport to your hotel or get you around to your business meeting, and still break speed limits on some highways. That does not mean that you can put in the suspension and whees+tyres from the M5 on that car (plus any other chassis tweaks) and have it throttle steer out of corners like an actual M5 with a 7000rpm++ V10.

LIAM and DAAN
GBP 33. Seen this one around a lot.

LinkFOR
GBP 20. Suspiciously cheap, even some zon reviewers complained about quality, may have smaller battery than stated... Also sold under eSynic name and possibly others.

Or would I need to step up to something like a Fiio A5 for this experiment to be sensible? Although I've read that it doesn't do well with high impedances either (this is the net, so diametrically opposed "facts" & opinions are to be expected :-D )

Does anyone have any experience with any of these or similar el-cheapo amps with high impedance headsets? I don't need a DAC, so prefer not to pay for one. Experiences with just the DT-880 250 Ohm on the X5iii are also appreciated. Could be I'm just fine (even better off...) without an amp - the X5ii does drive the DT-880 without any distortion and at an adequate sound level with the volume at < 100/120(?)

I'd just avoid cheaper amps in general and might as well stick with the X5III.

I still have my Ibasso D-Zero and while it subs for my desktop amp for the HD600, I have to crank it up high enough I get some noise out of it (which kind of beats the purpose of not having a noisy power line involved) unlike my very quiet Meier Cantate.2. My single and dual 9V CMOYs fared even worse than this one too.

Going back to the BMW example this is like thinking "hey the original M5 had an I-6 and there were supercharger kits for it," and then you just tell Alpina to make one for the new 6cyl cab models...which due to fabricating the new turbo, the ECU remapping, etc because they don't bother with these low end engines, plus the suspension and chassis parts, you might as well have bought an M5 and actually moved that much faster than the cab model. Or in computer terms it's like buying an RTX 2070 Super and running it at 2325mhz on liquid nitrogen, and assuming you can refill that while gaming, you'd still end up burning through enough liquid nitrogen you might as well have bought an RTX 3080.

I mean sure those amps are cheap compared to those but I'm looking at the value proposition here. At best you'd probably gain about 3dB ie about 60mW but no telling if that's even as clean (let alone cleaner).

No takers? OK, I will go further.

A widely made claim I'm reading is that without an (extra) amp the DT-880, or high impedance / low efficiency cans in general, will sound "anemic", which I suspect is meant as "weak bass" or "lack of dynamics".

It's only when your amplifier actually runs out of juice and starts to clip that it will distort and change the harmonic content of the signal. Before that happens, the frequency response would remain the same if the amp was DC coupled. If the amp is AC coupled, it is being high pass filtered, and a higher impedance load will give MORE bass, not less since a series RC circuit has a corner frequency of 1 / (2 * PI * R * C). So, to get any advantage from extra amplification, you'd have to have loaded your old amp so hard that it clips, and/or your new amp would have a bigger AC coupling capacitor to give more bass

It's not just sheer power that gives you dynamics and bass.

You can increase the power but if the electronic noise increases you get less bass and dynamics since it gets in the way of what you're supposed to hear, and this isn't always a very obvious interference. A very "black" amp will make the low end seem louder and deeper even if it has lower output vs one with a heck lot of power.

At the same time you do need the power because if you're listening at very low system output on anything but ridiculously inefficient drivers you're still at the point where whatever you were using before - like a DAP in your case, or in others, a cheaper integrated amp for speakers or a good ////////ALPINE receiver that has a separate amplifier stage with its own 12V line to the battery - wouldn't be at a point where noise is piling up.

Ti help you visualize that think of a graph with power on the X axis and THD+N on the Y axis.

Dark Blue - X5iii
Light Blue - a decent portable amp
Yellow - a cheap portable amp
Purple - a good desktop amp

Does anyone have any experience with any of these or similar el-cheapo amps with high impedance headsets? I don't need a DAC, so prefer not to pay for one. Experiences with just the DT-880 250 Ohm on the X5iii are also appreciated. Could be I'm just fine (even better off...) without an amp - the X5ii does drive the DT-880 without any distortion and at an adequate sound level with the volume at < 100/120(?)

I'd much rather save money than try something super cheap but is either barely more powerful or has more power but comes at the cost of distortion and noise.

I'm not saying there's absolutely no reason to get those, just that in your particular case I'd much rather not. Just sit down and enjoy music with what you have. People get too caught up with upgrades when audio isn't an easily measurable thing like "oh no my GTX 780Ti can't even hit 60fps average on this new game anymore I need an RTX 3070."

 

[Raketen]

nvm

 

[DrJustice]

...
Very generally you need a lot of voltage to maintain power output at high impedance loads, and if your source is a 7.2V to 9V battery, that's gonna be tough.
...

Well, DC-DC converters are used in all kinds of portable gear to get any voltage you want. E.g. the Fiiio X5iii has a 3.7V battery, but 8Vpp amp output.

You can increase the power but if the electronic noise increases you get less bass and dynamics since it gets in the way of what you're supposed to hear, and this isn't always a very obvious interference. A very "black" amp will make the low end seem louder and deeper even if it has lower output vs one with a heck lot of power.

The S/N is so high in today's equipment that it's of no concern to me. The X5 is far better than my ears in this regard.

I'd much rather save money than try something super cheap but is either barely more powerful or has more power but comes at the cost of distortion and noise.

I'm beginning to lean that way, because I'm not hearing any any compelling arguments to run an amp with much more power than you use, and I'm a long way from having any clipping or distortion on the X5.

The point of this wasn't to find my forever-amp or anything, just a try-out amp to experiment a little. And also to see if there were any aspects I didn't think of re. the effects of using a more powerful amp. But yeah, looks like I'll drop it. After all, the sound might come out noticeably worse with one more stage of amplification. If anything I may upgrade later to a player with more oomph if I should find the X5 lacking (by going deaf or something... ).

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Well, DC-DC converters are used in all kinds of portable gear to get any voltage you want. E.g. the Fiiio X5iii has a 3.7V battery, but 8Vpp amp output.

Doesn't get to 13v peak to peak now does it.

And you still have impedance to worry about. Even if a Violectric can do 30v or 60v peak to peak it doesn't mean the output at 32ohms is the same as the output at 300ohms, it just has ridiculous voltage so that even at 300ohms it's going to be overkill for any dynamic driver that came out since the mid-1990s.

The S/N is so high in today's equipment that it's of no concern to me. The X5 is far better than my ears in this regard..

It's not always something obvious. Like how a Meier sounds indistinguishable at a meet but if you had it at home vs some other amps it sounds like it has stronger bass.

THD isn't just a number either - push two decent amps hard enough and you'll start hearing some differences.

That being said it's not like I'm saying you need to blow your money on an expensive amp. All I'm saying is that $50 amp might not be any better than the X5 in delivering more power with not much more noise and distortion.

I'm beginning to lean that way, because I'm not hearing any any compelling arguments to run an amp with much more power than you use, and I'm a long way from having any clipping or distortion on the X5.

Two things to note here.

"Much more" might not be what you think it is. To get to a perceived doubling of the volume you're going to need over 8X the power since power input and actual output are not linear.

At the same time barring ridiculously low output levels or audible clipping positive changes have as much to do with a cleaner signal despite the higher output. And distortion and noise aren't always obvious like static or outright bad sound - some amps can sound very clean, very loud, but ridiculously lean but then another amp rated for less power goes louder before it distorts. That being said some harmonic distortion will just boost the bass instead of just making it audible. In short...unless you have all the measurements on two amps and taking measurements of total system output using the same headphone so that the interaction with the load will be the same, there can be some differences. It just comes down to how each buyer perceives the value of chasing what sounds better - are they the same price, is it worth selling the current amp and adding more to get that one even if they were, etc.

The point of this wasn't to find my forever-amp or anything, just a try-out amp to experiment a little. And also to see if there were any aspects I didn't think of re. the effects of using a more powerful amp.

I did read your title.

Regardless of whether you intend to keep the amp or just want to screw around with it chances are it won't be a clear enough of an improvement while there's the risk of those being worse.

But yeah, looks like I'll drop it. After all, the sound might come out noticeably worse with one more stage of amplification.

The problem isn't another stage of amplification if you're sending a clean line signal (the X5III can do that) into a cleaner or comparatively clean and more powerful amplification circuit.

Your problem in this particular instance is that the ones you're looking at might be neither of those.

If anything I may upgrade later to a player with more oomph if I should find the X5 lacking

I wouldn't expect much of an improvement on that given battery tech isn't foreseeably going to improve plus that whole logarithmic scale thing.

(by going deaf or something... ).

Well if you're deaf it doesn't matter if you get a Schiit Ragnarok or a Violectric V280, you won't be able to hear either.

Why not just enjoy not being sure if you might not be partially tone deaf unlike me who when my Meier amp blew the power supply I just walked around annoyed because much of what I can buy locally was overpriced and didn't sound any better and the closest I had to my Cantate.2 driving the HD600 was my D-Zero driving my ASG-1.3, and wearing it for an hour straight (or more) is something I only tolerate when I'm passed out in a plane.

 

[DrJustice]

Doesn't get to 13v peak to peak now does it.
...
I wouldn't expect much of an improvement on that given battery tech isn't foreseeably going to improve plus that whole logarithmic scale thing.

No of course not, it does 8V, as mentioned. This has nothing to do with battery tech. The voltage of a battery is pretty much irrelevant since DC-DC converters eliminate that as an issue.

Why not just enjoy not being sure if you might not be partially tone deaf unlike me who when my Meier amp blew the power supply I just walked around annoyed because much of what I can buy locally was overpriced and didn't sound any better and the closest I had to my Cantate.2 driving the HD600 was my D-Zero driving my ASG-1.3, and wearing it for an hour straight (or more) is something I only tolerate when I'm passed out in a plane.

Well, I'm far from tone deaf. In fact my hearing is pretty good for a 50++ year old. I'm also a hobby musician and audio tech in addition to life long music lover and hifi-enthusiast. I know and love sound and physics/electronics. However, I'm getting more pragmatic with age - the focus is now on enjoying the music more than tinkering with gear.

Anyway I think this has already come to a conclusion: that it's probably not worth it for me to do the experiment, and that the X5iii most likely sounds its best as it does unless overdriven, given that I get enough volume from it.

Thank you all for your thoughts!

 

[ProtegeManiac]

No of course not, it does 8V, as mentioned. This has nothing to do with battery tech. The voltage of a battery is pretty much irrelevant since DC-DC converters eliminate that as an issue.

It was a rhetorical question on how far it can go and that's as far as it can go.

Well, I'm far from tone deaf. In fact my hearing is pretty good for a 50++ year old. I'm also a hobby musician and audio tech in addition to life long music lover and hifi-enthusiast. I know and love sound and physics/electronics. However, I'm getting more pragmatic with age - the focus is now on enjoying the music more than tinkering with gear.

I specifically stated partially tone deaf, never said you're completely tone deaf. Meaning people that can easily pick out a note on a guitar getting plucked heard through a crap radio can otherwise end up not being able to tell the difference in close enough-sounding playback equipment in the same vein that someone that can do the latter (beyond placebo) might not necessarily be able to pick out notes easily through even his own system with his own guitar in his hand, even if he can tell the difference when he's blind folded and handed the same guitar but with a different pick up on it or you replaced his amp and otherwise set the loudness to the same level.

Same way I jump out to the balcony hearing a loud engine knowing it's an F360 but other people are like, "what's that?" and I don't jump up because I know it's a CBR1000.

 

[DrJustice]

A year on I can conclude that the 250Ohm mDT-880 on X5 iii works just fine as long you deem it loud enough, which I do. There's more than enough power for my (hearing safe) listening, and there's no diminished sound or anything.