[mbd]

Hi,

I'm currently using a Sony Discman D-303 as my (analog connected) source, but it's skipping around a bit despite a reasonable amount of time twisting potentiometers. So, I'm thinking about the next source choice. Something I'm not sure about is whether the main difference between a cheap CD player and a very good one rests in the DAC? I.e., if I had a no-name brand cd player (or even really cheap dvd player lets say) and set it up like so:

CD/DVD player -> decent DAC -> headphone amp -> headphones

How bad would it be compared to an expensive (good quality) CD player with built in DAC of similar specs to an external one?

Ultimately, is digital out from a cheap source via a nice DAC the same as analog out from a nice source?

thanks for any advice offered!

 

[replytoken]

Unfortunately, the answer is, "It all depends". It depends on the specific equipment, your hearing, and your expectations. I have been looking at a source upgrade for some time now, and I feel like I am going nowhere real fast. Unless you have $ burning a hole in your pocket, set a budget, and then try to listen to as many things as possible before buying. Good luck.

 

[gunting]

I am wrestling with the same issue as MBD. Let's say you have a $1,000 budget. Do you buy a used single box CD player like a used Eastsound E5 or Rega Planet; or do you buy a cheap player (for a transport purposes only) like the Oppo 970HD or the Philips DVP-642 ($40 this week with free shipping at Circuit City on-line store), and spend the remaining budget on a very good used (i.e., Audiogon) Benchmark DAC-1 for about $776? I should also point out that this theoretical question is applied to a headphone setup, not audio speakers. What would be your best bang for the buck?

 

[RedLeader]

That would be my personal suggestion. I had a toshiba 3960/VDA-1 combo and for the price it was unbeatable. I'm not sure about the law of dimenishing returns as the price goes up though. (Cue the legions of people complaining about jitter)

 

[clarke68]

There are good sounding CD players, and there are good sounding cheap DVD player/DAC combos. Everyone has an opinion about what sounds best, but to be honest, you need well-trained ears to hear much difference either way.

The things left to consider are the non-sound quality issues, like convenience and form factor. A "one-box" CD player could be considered a more elegant solution, and it only requires one AC receptacle. A DVD/DAC combo is more flexible, because you can use the DAC with more than one source (like a computer, Squeezebox, portable MP3 player, etc.).

 

[Laptopia]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarke68 There are good sounding CD players, and there are good sounding cheap DVD player/DAC combos. Everyone has an opinion about what sounds best, but to be honest, you need well-trained ears to hear much difference either way. The things left to consider are the non-sound quality issues, like convenience and form factor. A "one-box" CD player could be considered a more elegant solution, and it only requires one AC receptacle. A DVD/DAC combo is more flexible, because you can use the DAC with more than one source (like a computer, Squeezebox, portable MP3 player, etc.).

No knowledge of the subject of the thread, just wanted to say I like your sig line, TEAM DOWNGRADITIS. What a healthy trend.

 

[Thaddy]

Don't forget that by getting an external DAC, you get the added flexibility over a standalone CD player. I've chosen the cheap transport/DAC route, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to order a Storm Digital D02 soon. Then, I'll be able to use my computer and Toshiba SD-3960 as sources.

With the large amount of DAC's available in the <$800 range, I'd say get a cheap transport and spend the bigger bucks on a DAC.

 

[jimholt]

Why not go the other way and go for a decent dedicated transport, this has no dac. Get a cheap Dac like the Lite Dac-Ah and mod it later yourself or let someone in the diy section do it for you. This comdo would be a good setup. As far as transports are concerned i havent looked into them but i bet you could get some bargains secondhand. This would certainly be better than a dvd player and your on the way to high end imo. Jim.

 

[swmtnbiker]

Cheap transport + good DAC is a much better way to go than good transport + cheap DAC IMO. The DAC will have much more of an overall impact on sound quality. For an even more cost effective route, feed lossless audio from your PC to your DAC and cut the transport out of the picture completely.

 

[replytoken]

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarke68 There are good sounding CD players, and there are good sounding cheap DVD player/DAC combos. Everyone has an opinion about what sounds best, but to be honest, you need well-trained ears to hear much difference either way.

Well said. After having auditioned several pieces of equipment in the past few weeks, my ears tend to agree. I am having trouble justifying any kind of source upgrade that does not bring me good value in my listening. I wish I could say that I have golden ears, but that's just not the case.

 

[pfuller]

I summarized Pros and Cons of one-box players vs transport/DAC combos:

One-Box CD Players:
+ Best sound quality potential (no crappy SP/DIF interface, lower jitter...)
+ Just one machine instead of two separates
+ No hassles with expensive interconnects
- Lifespan of opto-mechanical drive is limited. In case of premature
mechanical failure, you might have to trash your cd player if manufacturer
doesn't offer replacement or spare parts
- Internal DAC (often) can't be used by other digital sources

Transport/DAC:
+ Transport or DAC sections can be upgraded/replaced individually
when mechanical failures of drive occurs or newer chipsets (DACs)
become available. You can also upgrade as budget permits. For example
start with a cheap transport and better DAC or better transport with
better DAC in the future
+ Digital inputs of DAC can be used by other digital sources
such as computers, DVD players or computer sound cards
- Digital I/O interface is critical. SP/DIF is unsuitable for high-quality transmission. Better solutions are expensive and usually not to be found
in affordable transports or external DACs.

I don't think this will help you to reach a decision faster but I'd say
price and quality wise both solutions can be more or less equal.
Let's say your transport has a decent low-jitter clock and your DAC's
PLL can lock onto a stable clock recovered from the SP/DIF stream, you
are going to be fine. It'll be OK too if a more complex synchronization
process is in place. But how would you know for sure whether that's
the case? Assuming you're not a digital audio professional, it'll be hard.
You can't try all transport/DAC combos out there. One-box cd players
are not necessarily better in terms of jitter - it all depends on the implementation. But there are potentially fewer problems because circuits
are in close proximity. Therefore I would only suggest external DACs if you:

a.) have an aging and/or expensive CD transport that you intend to keep
b.) need multiple digital I/O for various digital sources
c.) like the upgradability idea for budget or technical reasons
d.) have a computer-as-source setup in which you obivously need it

If your transport/DAC setup is improperly done, you risk getting
worse sound quality from it than from a one-box cd player at the
same or lower price! It could be the opposite, too but I just want
you to be aware what the risks are.

That said, if you simply want to enjoy your CD's, have no interest
in computer-as-source etc., I recommend a one-box cd player.
I know it's not considered "cool" advice and it may sound old-fashioned
but simple solutions still work.

Just my opinion...

Regards,

Peter

 

[Thaddy]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpippel Cheap transport + good DAC is a much better way to go than good transport + cheap DAC IMO. The DAC will have much more of an overall impact on sound quality. For an even more cost effective route, feed lossless audio from your PC to your DAC and cut the transport out of the picture completely.

Agreed 100%. Hell, if you don't want to spend major bucks on a DAC just yet, you could get a cheap transport with optical/digital output and then purchase a DAC-Ah, Zhalou, MHDT Labs Dialogue II, or anything else of the DIY variety. They all show up in the For Sale forum often and are very affordable. Grab a few that interest you and let your ears do the deciding.

Or, you could just get a Storm Digital D02, Ack! DAC, or DAC1 based on user reviews. All have good resale values though, which takes a lot of risk out of the purchase.

 

[Garbz]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dpippel Cheap transport + good DAC is a much better way to go than good transport + cheap DAC IMO. The DAC will have much more of an overall impact on sound quality. For an even more cost effective route, feed lossless audio from your PC to your DAC and cut the transport out of the picture completely.

Very good point. It would make little sense using a cheap DAC with a good transport. But that said dedicated transports are few and far between. One could always use... GASP... the internal DAC

.

Despite how most people on this forum feel obliged to run a transport through a DAC you can get just as good quality sometimes at a betterprice sometimes at a worseprice it all depends, from a dedicated CD player. I have stated before that in theory the internal CD player DAC has technical and production cost advantages to external ones. Also as mentioned above it is also a far more elegant solution. Shop around in both camps and see what you can find.

Some good cheap cdplayers include offerings from NAD, and Rega, and DACs well that's easy every second thread on this board is entitled Zahlou

 

[mbd]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I was thinking about bidding on this Musical Fidelity X-24 DAC on ebay as it was at around US$10 with a day to go. It's now (with 40 mins to go) at US$182 so it's no longer the bargain I thought it might be, so I'll leave it. I'm unsure how well an older DAC like that rates against the current choices, but I did like the idea of being able to potentially connect my computer and my cd player up to it at the same time since it has dual digital input with a switch on the front.

I have a Marantz CD63 coming my way in the next few months, so I'll probably wait till then and then see where my setup is at.

If anyone has any +ve/-ve comments to offer on the MF X-24 though, I'd be keen to hear them, just in case one does come along at a low price

 

[tourmaline]

I am also looking for a new source and also thinking the same route; one box solution or transport and dac. I heard some good one box solutions but also very good 2 box solutions. I think a very good dac, say storm d02-d03 or april sound da 220 paired with a decent transport should sound alot better then a one box solution of the same price.

The flexibility is also a good point. With a good dac you can try the settings and find the best for you, with one box solution you have to like the sound it produces. My opinion is that a good dac with a decent transport sounds much better. Don't forget that to bring ou the max in most one box solutions, you need to upgrade the clock and often modify the output stage as well!