Chasing Significant Upgrade from Bifrost/Lyr/HD650

[122743]

My current setup is as follows; Mac —> Bifrost 1 (Multibit Upgraded) —> Lyr 1 (stock tubes) —> ALO Audio Jenna Cable —> HD650

I purchased the above setup about 9 years ago and have been enjoying the sound, but I am in a position now to enjoy the benefits of a significant upgrade.

Having done a bunch of research, I am not 100% sure which direction to take so looking for some feedback.

I have also owned the original Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMan HE-500 and Grado SR-80i headphones, but sold all of them and kept the HD650.

Right now I am looking for options to realise a significant upgrade from my current setup. I do understand the priority order of headphones, then amp then DAC.

A couple of comments on the previous headphones I have used to get an idea of what I like/dislike;

1. LCD-2 - I really liked these sound wise, but felt they were too heavy and uncomfortable. They could have done with a slightly more high end presentation, but the bottom end was great.

2. HiFiMan HE-500 - I liked this sound signature, but the build quality was lacking and I was always concerned they would break.

3. Grado SR80i - Too bright.

4. HD650 - I like these from a comfort and build perspective and overall they have a pleasing sound signature. But I want more detail, more presence and better bass response. But not overly analytical. I still want something enjoyable with PRaT.

As for music tastes I generally prefer guitar driven rock with a solid bass line. e.g. Foo Fighters, AC/DC, Baby Animals, Collective Soul, Green Day, Guns N’ Roses, Heart, Van Halen, Third Eye Blind, etc.

But also like female vocalists such as; Suzanne Vega & Natalie Merchant, as well as some more contemporary artists like Dua Lipa. Oh and a smattering of 80’s pop.

I do not listen to classical or jazz music.

Also with COVID lockdown and working from home I have considered a closed back headphone. Yes I know the trade-offs, but with other people working at home next to me I am thinking a closed back may be worth considering.

Remember also I cannot audition these as we are in lockdown. I do have a good hi-fi store not far from me where I have purchased everything before, but at this time I cannot go there for auditions.

A few headphones I have looked at;

Closed
Audeze LCD-XC (concerned these will be too heavy, like LCD-2C but would have more of the sound signature I am chasing)
Sony MDR-Z1R (potentially too expensive vs performance)
Sony MDR-Z7M2 (worried these won’t really be the significant upgrade I am chasing)

Open
Focal Clear (do these have enough bass response?)
HiFiMan Arya (build quality?)

I have also considered DAC/AMP upgrades such as Burson Audio, Woo Audio, Violectric, Topping, SPL, etc.

Overall budget is circa. AUD$3,500 - AUD$4,000 but I want a solid return on investment for the money.

BTW I am in Sydney if that makes a difference. I need to be able to order online and have the items delivered.

Sorry for the long post, but thought the more background the better for recommendations as to where to start.

 

[122743]

I have done some more research and I like the idea of the LCD-XC + Burson Composer 3XP + Burson Solist 3XP combination, but worried about the weight of the LCD-XC's. Anybody use this specific combination that can comment?

 

[122743]

Otherwise if the LCD-XC is too heavy, I am looking closely at the Sony MDR-Z1R's. How would these pair with the Burson stack?

 

[ProtegeManiac]

My current setup is as follows; Mac —> Bifrost 1 (Multibit Upgraded) —> Lyr 1 (stock tubes) —> ALO Audio Jenna Cable —> HD650

I purchased the above setup about 9 years ago and have been enjoying the sound, but I am in a position now to enjoy the benefits of a significant upgrade.

Having done a bunch of research, I am not 100% sure which direction to take so looking for some feedback.

I have also owned the original Audeze LCD-2, HiFiMan HE-500 and Grado SR-80i headphones, but sold all of them and kept the HD650.

Right now I am looking for options to realise a significant upgrade from my current setup. I do understand the priority order of headphones, then amp then DAC.

A couple of comments on the previous headphones I have used to get an idea of what I like/dislike;

1. LCD-2 - I really liked these sound wise, but felt they were too heavy and uncomfortable. They could have done with a slightly more high end presentation, but the bottom end was great.

By "high end" do you mean price tier or the top end of the range, where the LCD-2 tends to be relatively weak (above 800hz vs below that) though relatively flat throughout either range? Because some people don't prefer it for just outright weak treble, but because it doesn't have painful peaks in that range.

If it's the latter you can easily correct this with digital EQ on a high shelf filter at 2000hz, Q=1.0, +3dB. That'll boost 1000hz and up evenly by 3dB, unlike peak EQ that will introduce peaks to a relatively flat response curve, with gradually fading boost below 1000hz.

2. HiFiMan HE-500 - I liked this sound signature, but the build quality was lacking and I was always concerned they would break.

Applying the EQ curve to the LCD-2 would get you a bit closer to this, but still not the peaks at around 8000hz (measurements tend to vary between 5500hz to 9000hz).

4. HD650 - I like these from a comfort and build perspective and overall they have a pleasing sound signature. But I want more detail, more presence and better bass response. But not overly analytical. I still want something enjoyable with PRaT.

As for music tastes I generally prefer guitar driven rock with a solid bass line. e.g. Foo Fighters, AC/DC, Baby Animals, Collective Soul, Green Day, Guns N’ Roses, Heart, Van Halen, Third Eye Blind, etc.

But also like female vocalists such as; Suzanne Vega & Natalie Merchant, as well as some more contemporary artists like Dua Lipa. Oh and a smattering of 80’s pop.

I do not listen to classical or jazz music.

Top end detail - Replace the foam insert protecting the driver with thinner material, like stockings. Just to prevent anything falling in there. You can also apply a high shelf filter similar to the LCD-2's above but maybe keep it down to +2 if you're gonna do the stocking cloth replacement.

Low end extension - Use hybrid or all-leather earpads. If you use the angled Brainwavz pads that comes with a thinner screen for protecting the driver, and Brainwavz also sells the adapter so you don't have to gut your original Sennheiser earpads just to use the mounting frame. All-velour pads will not have that big an improvement for the bass. You can also try a low shelf filter - 50hz, Q=1.0, +3dB.

PRAT - Burson Soloist (the original; not sure about the other and latter versions), Meier Classic FF, Bottlehead Crack, even a WooAudio WA3 or WA6, etc.

For context I'm still using an HD600 (but now with Brainwavz Angled hybrid or all-leather pads) and Meier Cantate.2 for power metal, symphonic metal, thrash, classic rock, blues, jazz, classical...and K-Pop.

Also with COVID lockdown and working from home I have considered a closed back headphone. Yes I know the trade-offs, but with other people working at home next to me I am thinking a closed back may be worth considering.
Remember also I cannot audition these as we are in lockdown. I do have a good hi-fi store not far from me where I have purchased everything before, but at this time I cannot go there for auditions.

A few headphones I have looked at;

Closed
Audeze LCD-XC (concerned these will be too heavy, like LCD-2C but would have more of the sound signature I am chasing)

If you're using headphones for while you work scratch any other Audeze because you can't lean back and rest it up against the headrest to take the load off your neck while working, unless you have one of those fancy gamer beds that kinda remind me of the workstation of that fat vampire in the Blade movie.

Sony MDR-Z1R (potentially too expensive vs performance)
Sony MDR-Z7M2 (worried these won’t really be the significant upgrade I am chasing)

Open
Focal Clear (do these have enough bass response?).

You might be overlooking an angle of this problem and a totally different solution for if you looked at it as a separte problem. If you're using them for working at home closed back or IEMs would be better for bass response if you don't live alone since the bass you can perceive isn't just determined by the bass the headphone can produce, but how much ambient noise you have to deal with. Short of really bad ambient noise that makes you crank up everything and damage your eardrums, even a liquid cooled PC with a quiet pump but enough fans still running fast enough can still make for enough ambient noise to not be obviously affecting the sound but what it actually does is affect the bass. The rest of the range produced by the headphone can screw with how much bass you hear, which is why headphones like the LCD-2 and HD650 tip up the low end but also weaken the upper range.

At the same time using these for while working makes weight a huge factor as you can't lean back and get some of the weight off your shoulders and onto the headrest, so you can't just get an LCD-2F or LCD-3 or even the LCD-XC either.

You could still just get a somewhat decent IEM or closed back and use that while working, then upgrade your reference headphone (and amp, maybe) even if at a later date (after recouping this expense). Think of it this way: if you wanted a car that drives like the 911 GT2 but has the utility of a bigger car, do you buy the RS6, or just get a 400Z that you can trick out (including putting a rollcage in it and removing some interior trim if you really want to go that kind of fast) and an S4 Avant (that won't be a slouch for when you need to overtake while having some bags in the trunk)?

HiFiMan Arya (build quality?)

I like HiFiMans for the sound, but I have not gotten one thanks to people not having a pleasant experience with product support. I mean it's fine if things do wear out a bit sooner, but I'd at least like as smooth an experience getting spare parts - including drives - like with Sennheiser. Right to Repair and all that.

 

[122743]

Thanks for the detailed response, ProtegeManiac. I will read through it a few times and digest the information.

 

[haasaaroni]

I really think anyone looking for an upgrade from an HD650 should look into the ZMF line. If you want a sound similar to the HD650, the Aeolus with universe perforated suede pads gets my vote. It’s like a 650 but with more detail, bigger, tighter bass that never muddies up the midrange, and less forward upper mids. They're the perfect rock cans IMO.

The Auteur is also great. I find has a little more impact but with a lot better imaging and detail. The sound is more neutral, with less bass emphasis (but greater impact), and more sennheiser-like forward mids. Their closed backs are also fantastic, but it’s been a while since I’ve heard any of them. You might enjoy the Atticus for rock.

I also own the Arya, and can definitely say they’re worth it from the sound perspective, though maybe not for the genres you listen to. They don’t have the impact a ZMF does, but oh boy that huge, immersive, spacious sound! It’s really an experience, and with great tonal balance too (at least the 2020 silent revisions). Voices can seem slightly unnatural at times though, and if the music is mastered poorly, they won’t do you any favors.

Hope this helps!

 

[122743]

I don't know anything about ZMF so off to do some research. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[ScornDefeat]

I really think anyone looking for an upgrade from an HD650 should look into the ZMF line. If you want a sound similar to the HD650, the Aeolus with universe perforated suede pads gets my vote. It’s like a 650 but with more detail, bigger, tighter bass that never muddies up the midrange, and less forward upper mids. They're the perfect rock cans IMO.

The Auteur is also great. I find has a little more impact but with a lot better imaging and detail. The sound is more neutral, with less bass emphasis (but greater impact), and more sennheiser-like forward mids. Their closed backs are also fantastic, but it’s been a while since I’ve heard any of them. You might enjoy the Atticus for rock.

I can second this recommendation for sure, this really nails it; if you like the Bifrost/Lyr/HD650 combo, then the ZMF Aeolus is a really solid linear upgrade and will work well with the Bifrost/Lyr chain. Like the HD650s, any ZMF headphone will pair well with tube gear.

Personally, I prefer the Auteur to the Aeolus, although the Aeolus is more similar to the HD650 in tone than the Auteur. To me, the Auteur will give you more of a notable improvement over the HD650 than the Aeolus would because of the Auteur's more resolving capabilities and tighter/faster response. The Auteur still retains some of that HD650 mid-range romanticism, though, so it's really a worthy headphone to explore.

While ZMF is likely the best option for your tastes as far as linear progressions from the HD650, since you mentioned female vocals, the Audio-Technica ADX5000 is another stellar option for you. Like ZMF, it pairs better with tube gear than SS gear, and while it doesn't share much wirh the HD650 in tone or timbre, this headphone just absolutely nails female vocals.

 

[122743]

Have been doing some reading on ZMF and am very intrigued now! Thank you all for the suggestions.

 

[haasaaroni]

Have been doing some reading on ZMF and am very intrigued now! Thank you all for the suggestions.

So happy you’re down the ZMF rabbit hole!

I’m with Scorn. You’ll definitely notice a bigger upgrade with the Auteur. But as much as I love mine, the tonality and instrument separation of the Aeolus is just

 

[122743]

So happy you’re down the ZMF rabbit hole!

Me too! So far I like what I have read and the few YT reviews I have watched. Looking at all of the different ZMF options now as a comparison.

 

[122743]

I have definitely gone down the ZMF rabbit hole now. Everything I have seen so far makes me think the Aeolus is for me. Thinking I may stick with the Bifrost/Lyr combo for now and only upgrade DAC/Amp once I have had the Aeolus for a while.

 

[haasaaroni]

I have definitely gone down the ZMF rabbit hole now. Everything I have seen so far makes me think the Aeolus is for me. Thinking I may stick with the Bifrost/Lyr combo for now and only upgrade DAC/Amp once I have had the Aeolus for a while.

Right on! You won't be disappointed.

In terms of amps, I think you'll be set with whatever you've got. The Aeolus sounds amazing on anything it's plugged into, but especially shines on an OTL tube amp, much like the HD650 but even more so. Schiit's own Valhalla has amazing synergy, as well as the Bottlehead Crack and Crackatwoa. They all give it a physicality and dimensionality to it that solid state and hybrid amps don't bring out as well IMO.

 

[122743]

Have been doing more and more reading and watching videos on the ZMF lineup and am actually leaning towards the Atticus, as I was also after a closed can.

 

[haasaaroni]

Have been doing more and more reading and watching videos on the ZMF lineup and am actually leaning towards the Atticus, as I was also after a closed can.

You might be right. When I first auditioned them, the Atticus was my favorite out of the whole ZMF lineup.