[Beagle]

Quote:

Nevertheless, the LP medium suffers from grave drawbacks, including the inevitable deterioration so long as they are played by mechanical contact, the large amount of maintenance to prevent whatever deterioration is avoidable, and inner groove distortion from cramming a constant amount of information into a decreasing radius of groove

You've been reading too many magazines and not doing enough listening on a quality analog setup. If you are listening to a $10 Mickey Mouse record player with a quarter taped to the tonearm to help the ceramic cartridge track, then yeah, I'd say your comments were reasonable.

 

[coolvij]

lol, Beagle....

What is this "inner groove distortion?" I don't like distortion that much....

 

[joelongwood]

Quote:

What is this "inner groove distortion?"

Technically, I couldn't tell you coovij........I think it has to do with the groove getting narrower as it winds toward the center of the record. But I can tell you it's pretty unavoidable and it sounds really nasty, even with a correctly aligned cartridge. And it gets worse with each play of the record. It can be OK on some records, but on others it's unbearable. I always hoped that my favorite song was at the beginning of the record.........cause it's downhill from there. I know that others here love vinyl, but having grown up with it and accumulated close to 1000 albums, I can tell you, for me, the best thing to come along was CDs. I believe, however, that you need to experience the sound of vinyl for yourself........it can be wonderful. I'm just too used to the convenience and simplicity of CDs.

And for what it's worth, I would consider the analog equipment I had (have) to be not the top quality, but pretty damned good. Thorens TD 125 MKII turntable+Stanton 681EEE cartridge, AR XA turntable with either Shure V15 Type III cartridge or Grado FTE. I also have a few Duals, an Elac Miracord, and a few Technics as well............inner groove distortion is real and unavoidable......at least for me, anyway.

 

[coolvij]

Hmm.....you know what, joelongwood? And everyone else, of course....

I've decided against vinyl. I don't have the funds....and with the advent of SACD, I personally can't say I'd be disappointed by getting into SACD.

Too bad the selection is horrible.

Oh well - I guess I'll do what chych has been telling me to do for a while: Get a nice CD setup, and down the road, invest in an Analoguer.

I feel kinda disappointed......

I'd LOVE to have a vinyl setup - but I'd rather go to college. Being an audio enthusiast is bad enough - but being a VINYL AUDIOPHILE! wowie.....I'll get into it after I start making some money....

 

[KurtW]

coolvij, I wouldn't worry about inner groove distortion as much as I would worry about jitter in a CD. And deepriver is right, it's worn sylus or tracking at the wrong force (too light or too heavy) that are what wears records, besides the Mickey Mouse model that Beagle mentioned.

As for your question regarding a $120 turntable sounding as good or better than a CAL Gamma DAC with a PCDP...It could, but there are too many variables to give you a direct answer for a particular combo without actually trying it out. Before I got into vinyl in a serious way I used a Technics SL-1700 with a Grado MT+ cartridge, which I still have but don't use anymore, to play the records that I've bought over the decades. I didn't get into vinyl more because the old Technics didn't sound better (although it really didn't sound worse) than the CD players that I was using. These were various home CD players with various external DACs like the Musical Fidelity XDAC. I wasn't really sold until I heard and bought a much better turntable. But what I had would still make a good starter system and be in the same league as a starter CD system. You could start collecting records knowing that later they would sound much better as you did upgrades. But how good your turntables sounds depends also on the cartridge and the phono preamp. I couldn't comment on the Denon you mentioned. I checked the Denon website and there is not much info there.

 

[coolvij]

Hmm....sorry, KurtW - but I think I'm sold on CDs.

You mentioned that as my turntables got better, my records would sound better. The same is true with a decent transport, DAC, and CDs - upgrade the DAC!

[sigh]

 

[KurtW]

Okay coolvij, here are my closing arguments:

1. You can upgrade both the CD player and the Turntable system, but a $1000 turntable system in my opinion will sound better than a $1000 CD player. I have two systems both with CD players and LP systems, and each have cheaper but better sounding LP systems.

2. If you're on a budget, then LPs are the way to go as they're cheaper. Earlier today I listened to "the Great Kai & JJ" LP, which I bought new recently for $7.99. AMG rated it 5 stars, but commented that they couldn't read the liner notes on the CD because they were reproduced from the LP and were too small in the CD format. I could read the liner notes from the 12" LP just fine.

3. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone say they didn't like LPs because of intergroove distortion! And I can only imagine that it gets worse over time if you are tracking too lightly (which would also explain why it sounds bad) and damaging the grooves. The AR turntable that joelongwood has is a classic, I had one myself. It didn't come with antiskating, however, which is what is used to compensate for the unequal pressure on the two sides of the grooves. AR said that this could be overcome just by adjusting the tracking force a little higher.

I've been bothered by lots of harsh, flat sounding CDs much more than I've been bothered by intergrove distorion. There are lots of valid reasons why LPs don't make sense...CDs are so simple and convenient, another is the extra equipment and bulk that's required for LPs. But I wouldn't let someone scare me away with the "intergrove distortion" argument.

 

[Beagle]

Technically, in theory, the inner grooves are "rotating slower" than the outer grooves. In theory, there is a loss of extreme high frequencies as you near the innermost grooves. You have the same amount of information packed in a groove but because it is turning slower, it can cause "groove cramp". The effect this has depends on how loud the last track was cut. If it was cut hot, some cartridges (probably misaligned) will experience problems tracking the m. On a well set up table/arm/cartridge, the audible effect is small.

If vinyl is kept within it's limits (ex. not too much length per side) it's sound is unmatched. Listen to some 12" singles where the grooves are cut hot but nicely spaced apart allowing room for those dynamics and excursions. They have a speed and impact that CD can only drool over.

It just annoys me when people who obviously have little experience with a format (in it's proper presentation) bad mouth it based on gossip and heresay.

 

[jmpsmash]

back in the old days, my parent used to have a LP player and it was all good listening, but i wouldn't call their setup HI-fi. anyway, all these talks about LP is tempting me to explore LP again. may be i will see the light. i think i can find enough info to get a ok TT, but what about the LPs? what are good sources for LP when i have to start from scratch?

i listening to classical exclusively, i saw very few classical auctions in LP. are there old record shops here in the Bay Area? (southern bay)

 

[Wes]

jmpsmash:

I hate to continue to be the wettest blanket in this thread, but...

Like you, I listen mostly to classical, and I had about 12 running feet of LP's. There are some wonderful performances recorded on LP, but they suffer from the constraints of the LP. Luckily, a good many of them have become available again on CD (not, I admit, always without some remastering problems).

Beagle, you are exactly right in your account of inner groove distortion and how best to handle it. Still, those solutions are not very useful for orchestral classics where a broad dynamic range is required. For smaller groups (jazz and chamber music) and for popular music designed to be heard favorably over the radio and therefore kept within a consistent dynamic range, spacious low-level cutting works pretty well.

(However, a lot of LP producers didn't follow your recommendations even when they could. Beagle, I think you'll admit that excellently recorded LP's are no less rare than excellent recordings of any other sort.)

On the other hand, to represent an orchestral forte you've got to have some pretty large excursions of the needle. What makes the situation worse is that so many orchestral pieces have their loudest passages at the end--just where the inner groove distortion sets in!

The usual solution in the old days was either to compress the single or ride down on the gain, but that makes for very disappointing climaxes.

My conclusion, then (pace Beagle) is that, especially for classical music, you should seek alternatives to LP.

 

[Audio Redneck]

Cool -

Let me give you one more option. I don't know were you go looking for music, but if you go places that sell used music (garage sales, flea markets, thrift stores, etc.) Keep your eyes open for music you like on LP and if it is priced right (ie less than say $2) you might pick it up.

Now, as it is you are a fan of MD, watch for friends with a table system (even you uncle's system if it has a line out) and make MD copies. This works even better if you have access to an audio CDR (some of the best CDs I have are CDRs from LPs).

Then, watch for a REALLY good deal on a table. Maybe today, maybe tomorrow, maybe next year. In the mean time, you are getting to enjoy some of the music you want, getting to try out vinyl and are not laying out a fortune to do it. Best of all, you are your vinyl will probably hold its value or increase (look up miles davis of coltrane on ebay and see what it is bringing for LPs).

You may prove imune to the bug, and won't be out that much.

(if I only had half of the money I spent with BMG

)

 

[deepriver]

coolvij: Probably too late to try to change your mind, but got to throw in 2 cents worth. I've been collecting classical (and some jazz and misc.) LPs for 30 years and the collection after extensive weeding due to numerous moves is still in the 1000s so I feel like I have a little experience with them.

I envy joelongwood his obviously very acute hearing and I am not being facetious 'cause I have no reason to doubt he's being sincere, but I think he's in a tiny minority if he can hear "inner groove distortion" that really bothers him. As kurtw says, poor equip. adjustment can cause unlistenable conditions, but so can dirt and lousy recording engineering. How are CDs different in those respects?

Quote
Wes "There are some wonderful performances recorded on LP, but they suffer from the constraints of the LP."

There are also some wonderful performances recorded on CD, but they suffer from the constraints of the CD. Don't give up on vinyl. If not now, maybe later.

 

[Rpell]

Quote:

I wouldn't worry about inner groove distortion as much as I would worry about jitter in a CD.

I found inner groove distortion to be probably the most annoying of vinyl's problems when I was listening to LPs. As others have pointed out, it's not something you can easily ignore or "tune out."

On the other hand, I don't think there is much evidence that today's DACs/CD players exhibit audible levels of jitter. In fact, my understanding is that vinyl's equivalent of jitter--wow and flutter--is orders of magnitude greater than the jitter levels of CD players. So if you're worried about jitter, you might want to think twice about choosing vinyl!

 

[jude]

Quote:

Originally posted by Rpell On the other hand, I don't think there is much evidence that today's DACs/CD players exhibit audible levels of jitter. In fact, my understanding is that vinyl's equivalent of jitter--wow and flutter--is orders of magnitude greater than the jitter levels of CD players. So if you're worried about jitter, you might want to think twice about choosing vinyl!

While I understand your argument (above), I don't think people look at jitter with wow-and-flutter in mind. That is, users of either or both analog and digital generally accept the limitations inherent in either, and simply try to maximize the performance that the given format is capable of. So if I'm dealing with a vinyl rig, I'll keep wow and flutter in mind. If I'm dealing with a digital rig, I'll keep jitter in mind. My point is that I don't think a digital format listener should not consider vinyl if jitter in digital formats is a concern for this individual. Additionally, even though both jitter and wow-and-flutter are time-related errors, the audible manifestations of jitter and wow-and-flutter should be completely different, and so, from a sonic standpoint, I'm not sure how analogous jitter is to wow-and-flutter.

 

[Rpell]

Quote:

Additionally, even though both jitter and wow-and-flutter are time-related errors, the audible manifestations of jitter and wow-and-flutter should be completely different, and so, from a sonic standpoint, I'm not sure how analogous jitter is to wow-and-flutter.

Being similar types of errors, I don't think it can be assumed that they *should* sound different, however I agree that it is certainly possible that they may. However, given the relative levels of these types of errors on CD and vinyl, it seems much more likely that the wow and flutter on the latter is going to be the one that is audible.