[JJDyn0mite]

Doctors are dumb

 

[coolvij]

First of all, beagle - let's not do that. I mean, posting ignorance? Whether it's true or not, it's harsh. Especially since it SEEMS like you said that.....cuz you disagree. I know that's not true....but let's not let this thread degenerate into flames...k? thanx.

Anyway - I would like some ACTUAL hardware reccomendations for an LP headphone setup - it should have everything I need to plug it into my JMT Penguin....whatever that may be (turntable, cartridge, etc).

Also - if I got into LP, and recorded to MD by analog means, would the sound quality be noticeably better/worse/different than digital CD recording?

 

[Eagle_Driver]

Quote:

And people tend to think Vinyl sounds much better than cassette...so maybe its just an issue of cleaning the LPs and configuring it right.

Tim D, when I had only vinyl and cassette (back in the 1980's), I knew that vinyl was superior to those crappy pre-recorded cassettes. Most of those pre-recorded cassettes were mass-duplicated at very high speeds on really cheap tape which was placed in really crappy shells and innards. The end result is that most pre-recorded cassettes sounded muddy even when fresh - and then they often broke under even moderate use!

As for cassette-superiority over vinyl, those who think so obviously made so many recordings on expensive tapes with expensive recorders and expensive microphones.

 

[Wes]

TimD:

Please don't get me wrong. I didn't condemn cassettes in all their incarnations, but the format when first introduced was well short of audiophile standards and apparently created for convenience and not much more. They were duplicated at many times playback speed and made with low-cost materials to boot. Noise was huge, and the cheap cartridge materials often contributed wow and flutter. They were, in short, miserable.

Later on, they were polished until they did become an audiophile medium. As I recall, Nakamichi was the leader among deck manufacturers. And superior tape formulations along with noise suppression made them much better and less noisy than they had been. They became pretty trouble-free mechanically too. I even dabbled in them a bit myself until CD's took my fancy.

I don't see much wrong with them for those that prefer analog. I'm not one of them myself, but--who knows?--maybe that enlightenment will strike even me one day.

LP's are another story. I'll admit ignorance of what may have happened to them after the introduction of CD's. I'll guess that in those 20 years I missed the introduction of better vinyls, better pressings by low-volume specialist firms in expensive short production runs, and sophisticated computer-assisted cutting techniques.

Nevertheless, the LP medium suffers from grave drawbacks, including the inevitable deterioration so long as they are played by mechanical contact, the large amount of maintenance to prevent whatever deterioration is avoidable, and inner groove distortion from cramming a constant amount of information into a decreasing radius of groove.

Reading LP's with lasers might help with the first two problems, but there aren't easy solutions to that third drawback. You might add to their expense and inconvenience by using about half of the surface, a path the DG followed for a long time, or make and play them back in variable speeds like CD's.

But all this has gotten us rather far from Coolvij's original problem and now from his reasonable request for some concrete help with his (sigh) attraction to LP's.

Sorry that I can't help there, Coolvij. Ignorance does interfere that way. But I know one thing: You shouldn't take a cheap path with the turntable or the cartridge (and I'd forgotten about needing something to provide the RIAA equalization curve [Oh, yes, a different equalization might be yet another way to rethink LP's.]) LP's are delicate and fussy. Compromising with them will have a worse outcome than compromising with other sources.
You'll need the best help possible from the equipment to get the best out of them.

I think that best was never good enough compared to cassette, reel-to-reel and CD, but you may find some satisfactions that I never did. And I definitely hope that, if you pursue LP's, you will.

 

[coolvij]

Hmm......well, to be honest, there is no way in heck I'm EVER gonna go back to using tapes....personal preference.

I guess LPs are just a medium from another age. Another time. A better time? Arguably....perhaps that is half of the lore of long-play records....

Plus, they look cool.....

I guess the Gamma will suffice for me.....

 

[redshifter]

wes,
you bring up good points re: quality issues at the inner bands of lps. and it is true that much of the vinyl used in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s was resued from old records, paper lables and all. today folks who really KNOW what their doing release their stuff on 180g virgin vinyl, place the low frequency info in the center of the mix, utilize 45 rpm, and keep record side lengths down under 15 mins. these are the advances you mentioned in lp. of course you can have poorly mastered lps just as you can have poorly mastered cds. also, lp as an analog medium has a much longer shelf life than digital. why? because down the line, when it comes time to restore 100 year old recordings, when digital fails it is like throwing a switch: it works one second and doesn't the next. there are records in the library of congress that were digitized for storage in the 70s & 80s that are lost forever because of this aspect of digital, and that the decoding technology was lost of forgotten. i have had a few 10+ year old cds simply fade or stop working, and they weren't abused in any way. even a 100 year old 78 can (and has been) restored using advanced restoration techniques (often involving paradoxically digital methods). again, i'm not making a judgement for one over the other, i like them both.

for an audiophile i think the greatest joy is working on your equipment. i enjoy the process of cleaning, adjusting the cart, demagnetizing, setting levels for recording, etc. for some it is just work and they would rather just slap a cd into a tray, but for me this stuff is a labor of love.

 

[dngl]

Here's my whole opinion on vinyl vs. cd. It costs a lot less to get high quality sound from a cd (ex. denon DCM-370 $200 new), than to get high quality sound from a turntable (technics $450 new + cartridge $100 + preamp $100 at least). Although the turntable audio will be "sampled at a higher rate" (to make an analog vs. digital analogy), which is the prime benefit of analog, I personally don't think it is worth the time or money ('cause I'm a student). Of course, the fun of thrift shopping for old LPs is a different matter entirely...

For the record, my parents own the turntable setup detailed above, and I own a CD setup, so I have done side by side comparisons. I do prefer vinyl, but it is too expensive and inconvienient. I also believe that a stereophile class a turntable setup sounds considerably better than a stereophile class a cd setup.

 

[Tim D]

I don't know if you should get the Gamma...but if you do get it for $75 or less.

Otherwise get the Denon-370.

A PCDP + Gamma is probably going to be much better than the PCDP alone, but so would the home player.

And there are plenty of DAC's that are probably much more competetive for the price although I do admit the Gamma has a very low price. But so are a lot of much higher end amps that are just as aged...

 

[Budgie]

You can get into vinyl fairly inexspensivly if you search for a decent used table. , it may take a little time to do it to a price point, was what I was trying to say. Table, phono stage and cartridge together I spent about $500.00.

 

[KurtW]

You can check out the thread "question for vinyl folks" for some recomendations on used vinyl set-ups for around $150 or less. This can get you something that will sound decent and will let you know first hand if vinyl is the way to go for you, and you can always upgrade later. There are a lot of new records being released for around $10-12, including from major labels like Columbia and Prestige. I just a new LP yesterday from a local store, a new reissue called Blue Serge by Serge Chaloff, a baritone sax player. You can look it up in AMG, 5 stars, not available on CD. Brand new, $9.99.

coolvij, don't let people scare you about talk of inner grove distortion and excessive maintanence, it's way overstated. I have a VPI record washer but I don't use it for the records I've been playing for the last 30 years because they don't need it (and they still sound great), I only use it for ones I buy used. Clearly LPs are not for everyone, or even most people. LPs are well suited for people that are into the Jazz greats and live near a big city so there is good access to record stores...sounds like you coolvij. But you should be willing to take an extra 15 seconds per side to use a record brush, something that's not needed for CDs. Oh yes, keep your fingers off the grooves and put the record away when you're done. Oh I almost forgot, pick up the tone arm before dragging it across the record...Duh. That's it for LP maintanence. Well worth the effort in my book. Also, getting LPs by mail is easy and shipping doesn't cost that much.

 

[deepriver]

coolvij: I agree with Budgie and KurtW. One of the neat things about vinyl equip.is that there's tons of it out there being discarded by those who are put off by inner-groove distortion, etc., etc., blah blah blah and if you're willing to shop a little you can get good quality, good operating condition for as little as 10% of original cost. That's starting to change as people like you discover it's not as primitive a sound as some "audiophiles" would have us believe, but if you act now you can find some bargains. I recommend used hifi equip. places (Saturday Audio Exchange there in Chicago would be a good place to start based on what I've seen). Another outstanding source of high quality audio gear if you have access to one are estate auction houses. I'm using a Beogram tt in outstanding condition I got for about $50 at an auction. The vinyl itself is a little different story and depends on what you like. So far the only sources of high quality used vinyl I've found specialize in classical and the prices are climbing. I guess we classical lovers are the only ones who take care of our LPs, but there must be others out there.

 

[coolvij]

KurtW: That is me - EXACTLY.....

OK, so let's say I get into LPs. Could I *damage* my LPs by using cheap stuff for a few years?

 

[coolvij]

Also - I found a *VERY* affordable turntable by DENON! The DP26F - belt drive, built in RIAA, and other stuff.

Is that decent? Would it outperform a PCDP + Gamma?

 

[deepriver]

coolvij: The only way you could damage your LPs with "cheap" equip. would be to use a cartridge with a worn stylus or a tonearm that can't be adjusted to a light enough tracking weight. These days it would be hard to find a tonearm that won't track down to a gram or so even in used equip. The bigger challenge might be finding one that wil adjust UP to 3-4 grams if you need it to keep it on a badly warped LP.

 

[coolvij]

phew! That was a big concern of mine - I mean, CDs are much better in that sense (no wear & tear when used normally, excluding unusual "disintegrations").

Still - no one has really said whether a turntable that costs no more than $120 with, MAYBE, a Grado Black Cartridge, will outperform the CAL Gamma DAC with a PCDP. Will they both be of similar detail levels, and each posses their own presentation styles? Or will a cheap turntable sound LESS detailed than a cheap CDP setup like the one I'm looking at (PCDP+DAC)?