Cayin HA-300MK2 (2022) TOTL Transformer coupled Direct Heated Triode Tube HeadAmp (Page 91)

[zach915m]

I've been listening with tube amps for years and have tried plenty of amps that are noisy and also amps that are completely silent, as good as any solid state amps out there. Not unreasonable to expect no perceivable level of noise performance at all especially when I've tried SET amps less than half the price of the Cayin that have zero noise/hiss even with most iems let alone headphones. If we're reading @TOMY's comment right, hiss only occur with XLR output and there isn't any with SE output which is indicative that there is something going on with that output. His frustration is definitely understandable and justified especially since this was his second amp. I've tried a few different mk1 units with varying degrees of noise performance and I'm disappointed with Cayin's inconsistency with noise performance. A pity as this at it's best is a very capable of making a great sounding system.

I had three different HA-6A amps, and had hiss / noise with all of them when using my ZMF cans.

I found that certain headphones emphasised the problem (the VCs were the biggest culprit), whereas the noise was barely noticeable with Aeolus and Atrium. So to some degree, frequency response must play a role.

I rolled an awful lot of tubes with that amp, and whilst some were better than others, there was no rhyme or reason to it. One set of RCA Clear Tops were perfectly silent, and another were some of the noisiest tubes I had. It was a crap shoot in that regard, which made dialling in tubes very difficult.

The reason I’m sharing all of this is that I eventually found a solution. There’s a user on here called “Skedra” (I think he makes Viking Cables), who made me an impedance adapter for the XLR output. It made the amp totally silent, gave me way more play on the volume pot, and meant I could roll any tube I wanted. I couldn’t perceive any loss in performance either, although I never measured anything.

I think it was around £120 when he made it for me last year, and it was a total godsend. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe users with severe problems should have to fork out more money to fix the problem, but if you’re set on keeping the amp and don’t want to run the tube lottery, it’s a great way to permanently fix the problem.

I posted this over on the HA3a thread and will post here as well:

There isn't one answer to getting a quiet tube system but the most useful thing I've found is trying different tubes. Sometimes for whatever reason certain tubes are quieter in certain environments. Aside from that having your local electrician come and make a breaker in your house that only runs your audio gear, and isn't connected to anything else in your house. Paying your electrician to do this will cost less than most "noise blocking" audiophile gear, and do a better job.

Lastly, I think a lot of us get caught up to listening to sweeps, tones, silence while moving the volume knob around and all the like, at some point you've gotta throw the music on and see how much your actually affected, or give in to the fact that you might need to do something like use a 4.4 with some headphones.

There's a solution to most of this stuff, but it can be hard sometimes to admit that we are getting in the way of our enjoyment more than the gear might be sometimes. It's this way with every tube Amp I've ever used or sold, regardless of the manufacturer, this is not a Cayin issue, it's a tube Amp issue.

I also want to add on to this, this isn't to say anyone is or isn't having noise in your amp that isn't bothering you or affecting your enjoyment. But what I want to make 100% clear, is that in my experience of having travelled, sold, and owned a TON of tube amps by just about every major manufacturer, I can guarantee you this IS NOT a cayin thing what-so-ever. Between the 15-20 units I personally have tested, they have all worked perfectly and been silent in my shop and in my house. When I travel, go to other people's houses, use unknown tubes etc etc, ANY tube amp is going to possibly come up with some noise issues. It's just the nature of the beast. You may even have had tube amps in your house that worked perfectly before, but can't get a certain tube amp to work quietly for whatever reason. Tube amps are finicky, and the fixes to theses things are many and varied based on the amp and all other myriad of factors. Please though, do not blame Cayin, and then go buy another tube amp, find it quiet, and believe that Cayin is to blame, that just means XYZ tube amp is more compatible with your environment and/or gear.

Here's the other post I made in the 3A thread of which is also pertinent:

If you haven't owned a pure tube Amp (hybrid amps with solid state sections like a LYR etc don't count) than you're expectations can't be that a system running completely on vacuum tubes are going to be dead silent. Tube amps will vary a TON based on the system they are used in, and many tube amp owners like myself spend a lot of money and effort to make sure that our system is quiet. This goes all the way from different power strips and sources (I have monster strips as well as the decware isolator and other voltage regulators) to properly shielded rca cables, to balanced to single ended converters and the list goes on. All tube amps vary a lot in design and are never going to be as plug and play as much cheaper solid state gear, and one thing that works for one may not work for another.

A lot of people who really love tube amps, have spent a lot of time to make their systems work for such tube amps. But that effort is something that should be considered. The Cayin ha-3a is the best gateway drug to this world, but behold, if you end up liking it, you may end up on an expensive and possibly rewarding journey, that may also lead to some frustrations.

I only mention a lot of the above, because what has happened to us numerous times, with the various tube amps we've sold from a few manufacturers including Decware, ampsandsound, Cayin and some personal amps I've had, is that we will sell the amp, and then I try to tell the owner that I can test the amp when we get it back, but that I can't guarantee that it will make noise at my shop. Then the owner gets mad thinking I am gaslighting them, when in truth, the same amp can perform drastically different in different environments with different gear. If you want to take the plunge into tube amps, please be ready for this to possibly happen. It is rewarding though when it works!

Cayin HA-300 mk2, where do I start - this thing is POWERFUL compared to my pendant or any other tube amp I have tried. Everything about it is next tier coming from Pendant, more natural timbre, wider SS, precise imaging and less noisy, even speed with VOs is better and pendant is fast for a tube amp). I have spent most of my time with Atrium, switching with VOs occasionally. Atrium sounds fantastic on SS and I didn’t see much gain on pendant but Cayin surely flush out the best of atriums.

Mids are the centrepiece here, and ZMF 3d staging goes on steroids with Cayin in a good way. Vocals surely stand out but bass is no slouch, doesn’t hit extremely low but is tight and sound substantial when called for. Treble rolls off but that’s atrium in general, will need some more time with other headphones.

I am curious what can be done with some different set of 300b tubes, but stock are a good baseline and I think some time should be spent with stock to appreciate changes with rolling. I would have loved to A-B this with Envy which is very similar 300b based amp and probably won’t break your back to carry up a flight of stairs.

I have the Envy as well, they are both absolutely fantastic 300b amps. Let us know if you do some tube rolling, and I am still on the hunt for "the" expensive 300b tube to buy. It seems like everyone loves the Elrog tubes. Maybe that will be the way. Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?

 

[zach915m]

Finally finished my 300b unboxing video, sorry for the wait.

 

[mfgillia]

Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?

Great posts above - very informative! Parts Connexion is very popular and where I got mine: https://www.partsconnexion.com/

 

[mfgillia]

Edit: Double post - added some pictures with the Elrog 300Bs instead. They are tall and won't fit with the cage on without some help.

 

[paradoxper]

I have the Envy as well, they are both absolutely fantastic 300b amps. Let us know if you do some tube rolling, and I am still on the hunt for "the" expensive 300b tube to buy. It seems like everyone loves the Elrog tubes. Maybe that will be the way. Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?

Elrog has supply issue through 2022. PxC will receive stock at the end of the month.

 

[TOMY]

Tom,

I think that your decision to return the amp is correct because it is unacceptable to have a hiss noise problem when listening to music.

Here is the most recent authoritative review of the Cayin HA300MK2 amp - https://headfonics.com/cayin-ha-300mk2-review/

He tested the amp with large variety of headphones and he never stated that there was a noise problem with any of those many headphones.

Here is a review by John Grandberg of the MK1 model - https://www.head-fi.org/showcase/cayin-ha300.23823/reviews

John stated-: "As a general overview, I find the HA-300 extremely quiet if not silent like my Pass Labs HPA-1. When I crank the Cayin's volume knob to full blast I can hear the slightest indication of vague background noise. This will vary depending on tube choice and I'm sure my balanced power conditioner helps lower noise floor, but overall I'd call this top notch performance from a tube amp. In my experience, SS amps seem to have more potential for complete silence, but Cayin comes pretty close to that ideal with the HA-300."

Note that he praised the amp for having a very low noise level, which was very faint when the volume control is maxed-out. However, that means there should be no noise at normal listening levels when actually listening to music.

I believe that in the absence of dirty power or a faulty tube, the Cayin HA300Mk2 amp should be expected to be noise-free and there is no reason why you should not return the amp if it is the true cause of the noise problem.

Jeff.

Thanks Jeff,

Yesterday dealer team came to my home and made some trial with HA300Mk2, they also brought the first black unit for tube rolling testing between 2 amps (I just realized that they have only these 2 units in Thailand). As a result both amps have noise noticeably and they agreed that amps could be malfunction. Fortunately the black unit which is my first one has no sound on right channel still even if we switched tubes and changed fuses between both units.

Finally I return the unit to them as I said and they will talk to Cayin to find the causes. So I closed my issues and waiting for new unit (if they still order this model to Thailand). It's a pity that I like its sound very much but ok... we never know.

Best,
Tom

 

[ColSaulTigh]

Great posts above - very informative! Parts Connexion is very popular and where I got mine: https://www.partsconnexion.com/

 

[Wes S]

Finally finished my 300b unboxing video, sorry for the wait.

Great video Zach!

 

[msq123]

I have the Envy as well, they are both absolutely fantastic 300b amps. Let us know if you do some tube rolling, and I am still on the hunt for "the" expensive 300b tube to buy. It seems like everyone loves the Elrog tubes. Maybe that will be the way. Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?

Two days in 300b and I have already had couple of recommendations for the great Elrog, definitely going to look in to them and figure out where best to buy them in the UK unless you plan to stock them like you used to do some tubes for Pendant.

Thanks for the video you dropped, very timely. I want to spend some time with the stock tubes to help me understand this amp a little better and have a baseline before I go rolling. Going with your recommendation in the video I might start with 6SN7, intrigued by your suggestion to try 12AX7 with a converter, I love rolling those on Pendant and could try some Mullards to start with. Start of an interesting journey and definitely looking forward.

Can I ask how is Caldera on Cayin 300, have heard so many good things already and I think they will pair nicely with my Atriums and maybe VOs need to go? It was a shame we didn't have you at London Canjam but hopefully next year.

 

[Wes S]

I posted this over on the HA3a thread and will post here as well:

There isn't one answer to getting a quiet tube system but the most useful thing I've found is trying different tubes. Sometimes for whatever reason certain tubes are quieter in certain environments. Aside from that having your local electrician come and make a breaker in your house that only runs your audio gear, and isn't connected to anything else in your house. Paying your electrician to do this will cost less than most "noise blocking" audiophile gear, and do a better job.

Lastly, I think a lot of us get caught up to listening to sweeps, tones, silence while moving the volume knob around and all the like, at some point you've gotta throw the music on and see how much your actually affected, or give in to the fact that you might need to do something like use a 4.4 with some headphones.

There's a solution to most of this stuff, but it can be hard sometimes to admit that we are getting in the way of our enjoyment more than the gear might be sometimes. It's this way with every tube Amp I've ever used or sold, regardless of the manufacturer, this is not a Cayin issue, it's a tube Amp issue.

I also want to add on to this, this isn't to say anyone is or isn't having noise in your amp that isn't bothering you or affecting your enjoyment. But what I want to make 100% clear, is that in my experience of having travelled, sold, and owned a TON of tube amps by just about every major manufacturer, I can guarantee you this IS NOT a cayin thing what-so-ever. Between the 15-20 units I personally have tested, they have all worked perfectly and been silent in my shop and in my house. When I travel, go to other people's houses, use unknown tubes etc etc, ANY tube amp is going to possibly come up with some noise issues. It's just the nature of the beast. You may even have had tube amps in your house that worked perfectly before, but can't get a certain tube amp to work quietly for whatever reason. Tube amps are finicky, and the fixes to theses things are many and varied based on the amp and all other myriad of factors. Please though, do not blame Cayin, and then go buy another tube amp, find it quiet, and believe that Cayin is to blame, that just means XYZ tube amp is more compatible with your environment and/or gear.

Here's the other post I made in the 3A thread of which is also pertinent:

If you haven't owned a pure tube Amp (hybrid amps with solid state sections like a LYR etc don't count) than you're expectations can't be that a system running completely on vacuum tubes are going to be dead silent. Tube amps will vary a TON based on the system they are used in, and many tube amp owners like myself spend a lot of money and effort to make sure that our system is quiet. This goes all the way from different power strips and sources (I have monster strips as well as the decware isolator and other voltage regulators) to properly shielded rca cables, to balanced to single ended converters and the list goes on. All tube amps vary a lot in design and are never going to be as plug and play as much cheaper solid state gear, and one thing that works for one may not work for another.

A lot of people who really love tube amps, have spent a lot of time to make their systems work for such tube amps. But that effort is something that should be considered. The Cayin ha-3a is the best gateway drug to this world, but behold, if you end up liking it, you may end up on an expensive and possibly rewarding journey, that may also lead to some frustrations.

I only mention a lot of the above, because what has happened to us numerous times, with the various tube amps we've sold from a few manufacturers including Decware, ampsandsound, Cayin and some personal amps I've had, is that we will sell the amp, and then I try to tell the owner that I can test the amp when we get it back, but that I can't guarantee that it will make noise at my shop. Then the owner gets mad thinking I am gaslighting them, when in truth, the same amp can perform drastically different in different environments with different gear. If you want to take the plunge into tube amps, please be ready for this to possibly happen. It is rewarding though when it works!


I have the Envy as well, they are both absolutely fantastic 300b amps. Let us know if you do some tube rolling, and I am still on the hunt for "the" expensive 300b tube to buy. It seems like everyone loves the Elrog tubes. Maybe that will be the way. Where do most people buy Elrog tubes theses days?

Amen brother, this post is fantastic!

As others have already mentioned, the Elrog's are where it's at.

 

[msq123]

Amen brother!

As others have already mentioned, the Elrog's are where it's at.

I have watched part of your pendant journey and really appreciate all the experiences you shared, it was all very helpful and will be looking through your posts here when I am ready to roll. Wondering if you have a post summarising characteristics of various tubes for this amp? I know this is all subjective so a ranking isn't feasible but would be great to have an idea of general characteristics and pairing suggestions from someone who has done this far longer than most of us. cheers

 

[Wes S]

I have watched part of your pendant journey and really appreciate all the experiences you shared, it was all very helpful and will be looking through your posts here when I am ready to roll. Wondering if you have a post summarising characteristics of various tubes for this amp? I know this is all subjective so a ranking isn't feasible but would be great to have an idea of general characteristics and pairing suggestions from someone who has done this far longer than most of us. cheers

Glad you found my post in the Pendant thread helpful! I have not gone into as much detail in this thread when it comes to tube rolling, but have done my fair share with this amp as well, and I will share my thoughts on all the tubes I have rolled in the HA300mk2 as soon as I get a chance.

This amp sure is a nice step up from the Pendant SE even with just the stock tubes, and once you roll in some "better" tubes it scales beyond belief, so fun times ahead for you no doubt.

 

[project86]

Switching gears a little from the tube and noise discussion, I wanted to point out that Cayin has a new high-end DAC which should pair beautifully with the HA-300 and HA300-mk2. It's called the CS-100DAC and I just started a thread about it.

Anyone with experience using their smaller iDAC-6 models (and their DAPs too, now that I think about it) knows how Cayin can do a great job on the digital side as well. The CS-100DAC is a real tank! Bonus points for being sold by our friendly ZMF proprietor.

 

[ThanatosVI]

Switching gears a little from the tube and noise discussion, I wanted to point out that Cayin has a new high-end DAC which should pair beautifully with the HA-300 and HA300-mk2. It's called the CS-100DAC and I just started a thread about it.

Anyone with experience using their smaller iDAC-6 models (and their DAPs too, now that I think about it) knows how Cayin can do a great job on the digital side as well. The CS-100DAC is a real tank! Bonus points for being sold by our friendly ZMF proprietor.

It's not exactly new. Been released 2018
However that doesn't make it any worse

 

[project86]

Yeah I guess it isn't "new" in a technical sense... but also there has been very little info about it - certainly not the big launch Cayin has done with their headphone amps and DAPs. Until Zach discovered it and started selling it, I had barely noticed it existed.

Cayin has what I feel is a very odd separation between their "personal audio" and "traditional hifi" categories. Like have you ever noticed they don't really market a lot of their gear, outside of the DAPs and the headphone stuff? At least they don't in the North American market. The iDAP-6/iDAC-6 were the exceptions, likely because they matched with the desktop-oriented iHA-6. But they have some really nice CD players and other stuff which seems nearly impossible to find (again, in my region at least).

The CS-100DAC is now available here through ZMF and I feel it is extremely competitive in the sub-$5k price range. And maybe beyond, for that matter.