[project86]

I don't know if it's related to their current sale event which lasts until July 14th, but I just noticed ZMF has the CS100DAC on sale for $2699. I already think the regular $3399 price is a steal considering the quality, functionality, and sound of this thing. But Zach's sale price makes it an absurdly good deal. Anybody on the fence about it before should absolutely give it serious consideration at the sale price.

 

[skylinekursk]

You guys don't even imagine what the beast this DAC is...
First time in my life I listen sabre without shout or brightrness yet full bodied, very dynamic with exceptional attack and transparent as midday in Cairo!
More I can say about timbre - it's not only r2r resistor ladder or old generation multibit chips are great. Meet the sabre outperformed a lot of DACs on the market!
Owner.

 

[George Hincapie]

I don't know if it's related to their current sale event which lasts until July 14th, but I just noticed ZMF has the CS100DAC on sale for $2699. I already think the regular $3399 price is a steal considering the quality, functionality, and sound of this thing. But Zach's sale price makes it an absurdly good deal. Anybody on the fence about it before should absolutely give it serious consideration at the sale price.

Shame it isn't available from Zach in 240V. It's almost £5000 from Audio Emotion in the UK.

 

[skylinekursk]

I don't know if it's related to their current sale event which lasts until July 14th, but I just noticed ZMF has the CS100DAC on sale for $2699. I already think the regular $3399 price is a steal considering the quality, functionality, and sound of this thing. But Zach's sale price makes it an absurdly good deal. Anybody on the fence about it before should absolutely give it serious consideration at the sale price.

I see you had chance listen Matrix X-Sabre Pro 3 dac. Can you say what's difference in SQ between Cayin and Matrix? Let's consider SS output of cs100 only...

 

[project86]

Hmmm that's a tough one, I have had both DACs in my system extensively but never at the same time. So take this all with a grain of salt...

I think they are both excellent DACs. The Matrix is pretty good right out of the box but can get even better if you tweak the settings to your liking. I like the Slow Linear digital filter, along with Jitter Reduction disabled, the combination of which gives a slightly more meaty, rich tone. But the key really seems to be switching to SYNC mode which to my ears unlocks a significantly better sound - definitely more lush, rich, and inviting, without sacrificing detail or resolution.

The Cayin also has a lot of options for tweaking the sound as well, so it's pretty variable in terms of comparisons. But if we use a really nice transport (the Cayin is quite sensitive to transport quality) and stick with SS mode, I'd say the result is of similar caliber to the Matrix (when using the best settings described above). The Cayin will probably be a bit faster, more crisp and sparkly, with the Matrix having slightly better tonality.

With pricing being similar, it probably comes down to what features you might use. Is the integrated streaming of the Matrix valuable to you? That could save you a lot of money that would otherwise go to a dedicated streamer/server. Or, is the tube mode of the Cayin more valuable? It offers a substantially different signature which gives a very different take on music than the SS mode. And of course there's the option to roll tubes and opamps which changes the equation even more.

Bottom line is that most people would be happy with either device, so choose based on features and you'll be happy either way.

 

[skylinekursk]

Hmmm that's a tough one, I have had both DACs in my system extensively but never at the same time. So take this all with a grain of salt...

I think they are both excellent DACs. The Matrix is pretty good right out of the box but can get even better if you tweak the settings to your liking. I like the Slow Linear digital filter, along with Jitter Reduction disabled, the combination of which gives a slightly more meaty, rich tone. But the key really seems to be switching to SYNC mode which to my ears unlocks a significantly better sound - definitely more lush, rich, and inviting, without sacrificing detail or resolution.

The Cayin also has a lot of options for tweaking the sound as well, so it's pretty variable in terms of comparisons. But if we use a really nice transport (the Cayin is quite sensitive to transport quality) and stick with SS mode, I'd say the result is of similar caliber to the Matrix (when using the best settings described above). The Cayin will probably be a bit faster, more crisp and sparkly, with the Matrix having slightly better tonality.

With pricing being similar, it probably comes down to what features you might use. Is the integrated streaming of the Matrix valuable to you? That could save you a lot of money that would otherwise go to a dedicated streamer/server. Or, is the tube mode of the Cayin more valuable? It offers a substantially different signature which gives a very different take on music than the SS mode. And of course there's the option to roll tubes and opamps which changes the equation even more.

Bottom line is that most people would be happy with either device, so choose based on features and you'll be happy either way.

As far as I understood matrix is darker ? What about timbre on both dacs? I also found another another interesting dac but unfortunately there is almost no reviews... audio lab 9000n, I guess they all in the same league

 

[project86]

I'm not sure I'd call the Matrix "dark" but it may be darker than the Cayin... again very difficult to say without having them here together for comparison.

Timbre is similar on both units from my recollection though (both very good!), only falling behind more expensive units I've heard.

I am not very familiar with the 9000N but I like the look and the feature set at least.

 

[Trickness]

Was thinking about buying a Yggdrasil MIB as an upgrade to my Bifrost 2/64, but this thread has me intrigued as I own an HA-300MK2. Wondering if anyone who has heard other DACs - especially Schiit (I also own/love a Yggy OG A2) can compare the sound with the Cayin - there’s almost nothing online about this DAC, and the 9038 seems kind of not so bleeding edge DAC tech and my Opp 205 which uses 9038’s (I think) sounds like poop.

 

[project86]

Was thinking about buying a Yggdrasil MIB as an upgrade to my Bifrost 2/64, but this thread has me intrigued as I own an HA-300MK2. Wondering if anyone who has heard other DACs - especially Schiit (I also own/love a Yggy OG A2) can compare the sound with the Cayin - there’s almost nothing online about this DAC, and the 9038 seems kind of not so bleeding edge DAC tech and my Opp 205 which uses 9038’s (I think) sounds like poop.

I spent some time with a Yggy OG just a few months before the LIM came out (so I don't know what we would call it beyond "newest OG"?). I really enjoyed it. Unfortunately I sent it back prior to picking up the Cayin, so I never got to directly compare the two of them. And of course I have yet to hear the new MIB so can't comment on that.

I felt like the Yggy OG I had was a little punchier and more bombastic, with a visceral feel that was great for energetic music (all sorts of rock, metal, etc). The CS-100DAC is either more neutral/straight forward/detail oriented in SS mode or else warmer/smoother/more full bodied in tube mode. So very unique approaches and perhaps tough to compare even if I did have them both on hand.

The Oppo 205 is a very different animal than the Cayin. As you probably know, having the same actual DAC chip in common means very little. The Oppo technically has dual 9038Pro chips but one is dedicated to surround, and the other for stereo listening. So the Cayin has double the "DACs per channel" if you think of it that way. But again, that's not the key differentiator. To my ears the stock Oppo is nice but somewhat clinical and can get boring. That's why I had mine upgraded by ModWright which really improved every aspect.

 

[Trickness]

I spent some time with a Yggy OG just a few months before the LIM came out (so I don't know what we would call it beyond "newest OG"?). I really enjoyed it. Unfortunately I sent it back prior to picking up the Cayin, so I never got to directly compare the two of them. And of course I have yet to hear the new MIB so can't comment on that.

I felt like the Yggy OG I had was a little punchier and more bombastic, with a visceral feel that was great for energetic music (all sorts of rock, metal, etc). The CS-100DAC is either more neutral/straight forward/detail oriented in SS mode or else warmer/smoother/more full bodied in tube mode. So very unique approaches and perhaps tough to compare even if I did have them both on hand.

The Oppo 205 is a very different animal than the Cayin. As you probably know, having the same actual DAC chip in common means very little. The Oppo technically has dual 9038Pro chips but one is dedicated to surround, and the other for stereo listening. So the Cayin has double the "DACs per channel" if you think of it that way. But again, that's not the key differentiator. To my ears the stock Oppo is nice but somewhat clinical and can get boring. That's why I had mine upgraded by ModWright which really improved every aspect.

Yeah, the Oppo just sounds really flat with the internal DAC, so I send the digital signal over coax to the Yggy when listening to CDs or 24/96 discs, which is a huge improvement. I know that the chip is only where things start, and everything that follows along through the output stage matters more than the chip set, it just seems that really none of the modern DACs that people rave about are based on the 9038.

One of the reasons I’m thinking about getting a new DAC (and really, the Bifrost 2/64 is no slouch) is that my Yggy OGA2 is being used on my speaker set up, and I think I am under serving my HA-300 MK2 and DNA Stratus with the Bifrost, which I bought really to use with my desktop computer. don’t get me wrong, it sounds really good, just not as good as what I’m used to with Yggy. I use Utopia 2022 and Meze Empyrean with my headphone rigs.

I was thinking of buying a Yggy MIB which just became available - my only issue with the Yggy is that sometimes the bottom gets a bit too much when I’m using it with the HA300, it kind of totally overwhelms things on that amp. So I thought a more neutral/transparent DAC might be a good match, and the MIB is apparently more along those lines.

Very interested in the Cayin, just because it’s weird, and the tube aspect sounds interesting. But I’m guessing the resale value on a piece like this would be almost nothing if I decided I didn’t like it down the line.

 

[project86]

It was very interesting to me when I got my 205 back from ModWright Instruments. They upgrade all capacitors and resistors in the signal path, and then replace to opamp-based analog section with Lundahl output transformers and 6922 driver tubes. They also add a massive outboard, tube-rectified power supply. The digital section (9038, clocks, etc) remains the same. But man, what a difference in sound!

I've always known the actual DAC chip is only one small ingredient but it was illuminating to see it actually play out like that.

Anyway, you're absolutely right that the Yggy could possibly overwhelm a bit in certain situations/with certain gear. That presentation is part of its charm though and I'm curious to see if it feels like some of the magic is missing on the MIB version. Hopefully they hit a great compromise and it's the best of both worlds.

You are also right, the Cayin is a bit weird and imho tons of fun. But yeah, resale value is probably nowhere near as good as the Yggy, so it's a risk for sure. On the flip side, I feel it does offer a ton of bang for the buck in the first place, so it's a trade off.

Too bad there isn't a dealer where you can try it out - that's the best way to be sure but hard to come for anything outside the most mainstream gear.

 

[Trickness]

It was very interesting to me when I got my 205 back from ModWright Instruments. They upgrade all capacitors and resistors in the signal path, and then replace to opamp-based analog section with Lundahl output transformers and 6922 driver tubes. They also add a massive outboard, tube-rectified power supply. The digital section (9038, clocks, etc) remains the same. But man, what a difference in sound!

I've always known the actual DAC chip is only one small ingredient but it was illuminating to see it actually play out like that.

Anyway, you're absolutely right that the Yggy could possibly overwhelm a bit in certain situations/with certain gear. That presentation is part of its charm though and I'm curious to see if it feels like some of the magic is missing on the MIB version. Hopefully they hit a great compromise and it's the best of both worlds.

You are also right, the Cayin is a bit weird and imho tons of fun. But yeah, resale value is probably nowhere near as good as the Yggy, so it's a risk for sure. On the flip side, I feel it does offer a ton of bang for the buck in the first place, so it's a trade off.

Too bad there isn't a dealer where you can try it out - that's the best way to be sure but hard to come for anything outside the most mainstream gear.

What would you say the sonic strengths of the Cayin would be? I can’t really find a single review out there, other than what you’ve written about it, and the brief blurb on the ZMF website.

I remember reading reviews of that modwright setup, wasn’t it like double the cost of the actual 205 unit?

 

[project86]

What would you say the sonic strengths of the Cayin would be? I can’t really find a single review out there, other than what you’ve written about it, and the brief blurb on the ZMF website.

I remember reading reviews of that modwright setup, wasn’t it like double the cost of the actual 205 unit?

If I recall correctly, the ModWright upgrades to the 205 were $2500. Original price of the Oppo was $1299, so yeah it was about double. That still put you at under $4k for what I'd argue is a world-class DAC/universal disc player.

Plus, have you seen the market for used 205s these days? Excellent condition models will easily go for the mid-$2k range... one of the rare pieces of audio gear that actually increased in value. I've also seen a few ModWright versions go for around $5k so even that is an increase, despite mods usually being a terrible value on the used market.


Anyway, the CS-100DAC, when running in SS mode, is very neutral, revealing, clean, and has excellent detail retrieval, without feeling overly clinical/sterile. It's just a great example of a straight-forward DAC sound that imparts very little editorialization on the music.

Switch to tube output mode and things get more full-bodied and thick, with a beautiful bloom and harmonic richness that is perhaps not as accurate but certainly more fun at times. It's also smoother and more forgiving of bad recordings or harsh headphones.

It's almost like two DACs in one when you consider the differences between those two modes.

The Cayin is probably the most sensitive DAC I have right now (out of maybe a dozen on hand) when it comes to transport quality. It sounds pretty lifeless when I use a general purpose device like a Surface or other laptop. But it scales very well when using a quality device - the Stack Audio Link II, Matrix Element S, Euphony Summus, or my ModWright Oppo 205 all help it "wake up", each in slightly different ways.

I still plan on swapping out the 6922 tubes and messing with different opamps at some point. Been putting it off forever but one of these days I will find the time. It's possible there is even more performance to be had from the Cayin.

 

[Trickness]

I would love to see a comparison between this unit and the Primaluna Evo DAC, which is also a tube dac. The Primaluna uses Burr Brown chips and a “tube clock” and has fantastic reviews, but it seems far less flexible.