[Golden Monkey]

You know the saying "if it's too good to be true, it probably is"? Well, I experienced just that when I ordered a pair of HD650's through Amazon recently. One seller was offering new, in box for $307.98. All their customer feedback comments lead me to believe they were very reputable, etc. etc. All you vets around here that have bought extensively online are familiar with what to ask a seller, but I left out a critical question: "Are you an AUTHORIZED Sennheiser dealer?". I was very through in asking about warranty coverage (see below regarding their return policy for warranty issues...what's in the below exchange was copied directly from their email. Today, Zorander posted about an issue he was having with his HD650's (one channel seeming to be louder than the other...LINK). Well, I was having this problem as well, but figured it was due to them not being burned in yet, or something. Well, I checked the Senn site for autorized sellers after our friendly local Senn Guru TheDeliveryMan advised him to return for service, as they were under warranty. Lo and behold...they didn't appear on the seller list. I PM'd back and forth with TDM, and taking his advice, I emailed the seller to inquire about returning them. Here's our email exchange:

ME - What do I need to do about returning these phones to you? The left/right channel balance is off, and a Sennheiser rep is recommending that I return them for service. They mentioned that your company is not an authorized reseller, and that they are aware of dealing with your company in the past. I would like to return them as defective for a refund.

THEM - Amazon Returns/Exchanges- Please print this email and put it inside the box that you are using to return the product and send it to:
Sarjo Returns/Exchanges
4057 Rt 9 North Suite 278
Howell NJ 07731
Make sure you include all parts, manuals, etc or else we will refuse to accept the return.
I can only exchange them as outlined on Amazon.com
It states no refunds. exchanges only if defective.

ME - Can you obtain an RMA number for me so I can ship them to Sennheiser for a warranty repair? By the way, the corrugated box has no serial number sticker on it, so Sennheiser cannot track the history of these headphones. Wil this be an issue if I DO send them to Senn for repairs?

THEM - I am not an dealer and my supplier keeps all serial numbers for their records. You have to send it to me. We will exchange it for another set. We will sell yours as refurbished/damaged.

ME - In a previous inquiry to you guys regarding warranty coverage, you stated:
"Warranty will not be a problem if purchased from us. The warranty is from the manufacturer but you must follow these instructions FIRST. Manufacturers are against online sales because they want the general
public to pay full retail pricing and us e-tailers are here to provide quality goods at a reasonable price. All you need to do is contact us FIRST in the event you should have a problem down the road. We will
obtain a return authorization number on your behalf and you can send the item directly to the manufacturer for repairs. Just check our
feedbacks and it will say it all about who we are and the quality of service we provide to all of our online customers."

Why do I now need to send them to you if this is the case? If I send them to you (with no guarantee that I'll ever receive replacements back...), I still will not have a two year factory warranty that I would have from an authorized seller. I would rather just obtain an RMA, as you promised, send them to Sennheiser, and be done with it instead of filing a complaint with Amazon, American Express, posting negative feedback, and raising hell on every audiophile website out there.

THEM - Just send it back to me. This small sale is not worth arguing. I will refund. Make sure you email me the tracking number

Needless to say, they are going back. I ordered another pair from J&R, an authorized seller for $329 with free shipping. In the end, I'm spending $10 more for a pair, but the fact that they are everything they should be, and covered under warranty puts my mind at ease immensely. TDM says that a lot of grey-market resellers engage in unscrupulous practices like removing the small white sticker from the corrugated box that contains the serial number of the item, making it impossible for Sennheiser to track them historically.

BUYERS please be AWARE! Make sure you are buying from an authorized seller, and verify that they DO have the serial number sticker on the box. If you have problems with a pair you buy from a non-authed vendor, you run the risk of not being able to get your headphones repaired under warranty, and this will cost at least $35 + shipping just to send them to Senn for repairs. If you are buying used, find out where your seller bought them from, and if they are newish, to make sure they are under warranty. If they have the box, make sure it has the serial number on it.

I just wanted to let others know what they're up against...if you see good deals, be sure to ask about things like this.

 

[Hopstretch]

You had a problem with your cans, so the seller offered to send you a new pair. You didn't care for that idea, so the seller offered to refund your money.

I'm sort of failing to see how you were screwed over here?

 

[Vaughn]

I agree with you Hopstretch... seems like much ado about nothing.
I just ordered a pair of 650's from the same seller and they arrived very
quickly and in perfect order.

edit; mine also still had the serial number sticker on the outer corrugated box.

 

[Golden Monkey]

The offer to replace them is fine, but what they told me about getting a return authorization prior to ordering, and then what they tell me later are two different things. They are not covered under a factory warranty, and if I needed to send them to Sennheiser at some point, it wouldn't be a smooth process. I'm not saying I got screwed over, but that they were offering them as NEW, when in fact they only may be new, but no one including Senn would have any way to tell. Ask TheDeliveryMan...he categorically states (via PM, so I'm not going to post quite what he says unless he feels like commenting here) that they have had issues with them in the past, are well aware of their methods, and all I'm posting this for is a bit of advice to anyone thinking they get a good deal online. Getting exactly what you were promised and paid for, and expecting that when "new" actually means "new" isn't important to some people I guess...

 

[Hi-Finthen]

I thank you, Golden Monkey, for bringing this to the forums readership!

Obviously, I agree with you, this practice stinks and there are all to many online unauthorised so called distributitors IMO & E!!!!

While shopping I've ran into a few and the hassel and insecurity is not at all worth the 10% or less, financial benefit/ risk ratio!

Look into the thread on Denon D2000s where I had difficulties with not one, but two shady outlets!

Most recently while shopping for "best price' on the C.A. Azure 740c, i came upon such an outlet located in N.J. which had something like a 10% so called savings; Well, upon reading closely their warrenty "deal', buyers are required to send the hardware to them for replacement or repair, their choice under the 2 year warrenty period... No Thanks!

Indeed folks - Caveat Emptor and stay away from these dealers!!!

Do keep us informed on how the process goes from here on through actual full refund!

Best regards~

 

[Zorander]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Monkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Today, Zorander posted about an issue he was having with his HD650's (one channel seeming to be louder than the other...LINK).

I remind all that my problem occurred after some 2-3 years of use and only recently. Mine is a problem that developed over time, unlike the OP's whose phone is brand-new.

 

[Hi-Finthen]

Going way back now to May/June 2006, I bought hD-580s from Amazon and they were defective out of the box. Amazon has a convoluted return system policy, but at least i did finally recieve a refund and Amazon included a $20 coupon for my inconvience; As they explained, they were recieving many of this same "lot" of HD-580s with the same complaint of one channel cutting out! Sience that experience I was always leary of that wire contact point system on the Sennhiesers. Although, I did go on to try a pair of HD-650s from J&R, but I only had a HeadFive which wasn't at all able to drive them well; And at least the return process through J&R was hassel free, relative to my dealings with Amazon, even including their kind offer of a $20 inconvience fee. But at least that's an indication that they were trying to secure good will and did so as I'm a return customer with them, although for mostly music, actually.

 

[Golden Monkey]

A couple more points here...first, Hopstretch, there were a couple of other emails in between there, but these were the relevant ones. At first they would not offer money back, just the replacement. That's fine, as they state plainly on the Amazon page that they would not accept returns, only would replace if defective, which is what they DID offer me. However, my issue is with what they told me about obtaining an RMA, and that was straght up shady dealings. Even after that they would still only offer to replace. It wasn't until I threatened other means of recourse that they just tossed their hands up and said fine, we'll refund them. To Amazon's credit, as soon as I filed an "A to Z Guarantee" complaint they responded in a few hours with:

This e-mail confirms that an Amazon.com A-to-z Guarantee claim has been filed for order #XXX-XXXXXXX-XXXXXXX because you received a damaged item. Your comments were "Item defective, contacted seller, issue not resolved, hence submitting guarantee claim. ".
When an A-to-z Guarantee claim is approved, Amazon.com reimburses you based on your original method(s) of payment. You can check the status of your claim by visiting Your Account. In the "Where's My Stuff?" section, select "Orders placed in the last 6 months" from the drop down menu and then click the "Go!" button. On the following page, click on the "View Order" button for this transaction. Then click on the link for "Problem with this order?" This will show you the current status of your claim. If a reimbursement has been processed, you should see an Important Message listed at the top of the order summary page.
If your seller directly resolves your problem, please let us know by replying to this e-mail and placing an 'X' in the box below.
While we always encourage buyers to try to reach a solution with their seller first, the A-to-z Guarantee exists as a final resort for buyers who have not been able to find satisfactory resolution.
Our Guarantee claim specialists will review this matter on your behalf. We'll let you know what we conclude as soon as possible. Most claims for reimbursement are resolved within 1-2 weeks.
We expect all sellers to maintain the same high standard of customer service that Amazon.com does, and your claim will receive the careful review it deserves. You'll hear from us within the next 1-2 weeks.
Best Regards,
Amazon.com A-to-z Guarantee Program

It's kind of funny, because that wasn't quite what I did put in my claim, but whatever. Then, I got an email from the seller, and it was a response to Amazon sending them:

We are writing to follow up with you regarding the Guarantee Claim that was filed for order XXX-XXXXXXX-XXXXXXX. The buyer has been instructed to return the order to you; however, they do not have your return address.
Please send an e-mail to the buyer's e-mail address, blashblahblah, with this information and cc payments-guarantee-reply@amazon.com on your message. Be sure to include the order number in the subject line of your email. To resolve this issue as quickly as possible, please provide this information to the buyer within the next 3 business days or you will be held responsible for the full amount of this claim.
We thank you for your prompt attention to this matter and for selling with Amazon.com.

Amazon jumped all over this, and didn't let it wait. According to their info about "A to Z", they investigate these claims prior to action, but it seems this seller is not a stranger to their fraud department's investigators. That's merely an assumption, but I'm sure they have been investigated in the past, and they usually act on any claims right away in order to keep their reputation intact. Most likely they are banking on selling high-dollar items of suspect origin at outstanding prices banking on the fact that most consumers will either not notice, are unaware of these types of business practices, understand their legal options, or whatever. Think of it this way...you can buy X amount of $100 retail grey/black market widgets for $50 each, sell them online for $75, and most people will consider that a bargain. If they sell 50 of these, and five come back as defective or whatever, then you come out ahead. Especially if you state on your ad online "BRAND NEW IN RETAIL BOX NOT REFURBISHED. EXCHANGES ONLY IF DEFECTIVE. PLEASE DO NOT BUY IF YOU PLAN TO TRY AND RETURN THEM BECAUSE WE DO NOT RESELL USED ITEMS.". And then of course, they tell me "We will sell yours as refurbished/damaged.", essentially passing on my busted ones to some other dupe. I just don't want folks to fall for this...

I just noticed they replied to my feedback comments, lol:

2 out of 5: "After gaining assurances from the seller that the Sennheiser HD650's I ordered were "legit", I found them to be defective. The left and right channel balance is off. These guys are NOT authorized dealers of Sennheiser. I've emailed sarjo dist. asking about returning them as defective for a refund. Sennheiser will not honor warranty service requests directly from them."
Date: 4/17/2008 Rated by Buyer: Jeremy J.
Seller Response: "I offered to exchange this and he refused. He wanted to send directly to sennheiser. I offered to exchange and refund. Can't make this guy happy no matter what." Date: 4/17/2008

Guess not, not if you LIE to me in the first place...

Oh, and Zorander, yeah..I know yours are old, but your topic got me to thinking, and acting on this...

 

[Golden Monkey]

Qucik update - shipping them back to these guys today via UPS next day air. I paid extra for expidited shipping, but they still took a week by standard UPS ground, so that was an extra $12 pissed down the drain...

 

[umbalito]

While I agree that what the seller initially told you about the warranty process seems to be inaccurate, I think you're pretty much the one causing all the headaches yourself.

Just because a seller is not an authorized dealer does not mean they are dishonest, and are not selling NIB goods.

The seller offered to facilitate the return, all you had to do was return it to them instead of Senn. Yet you still insisted on sending it to Sennheiser, where they may or may not fix it.

And what is with this:
"Why do I now need to send them to you if this is the case? If I send them to you (with no guarantee that I'll ever receive replacements back...), I still will not have a two year factory warranty that I would have from an authorized seller. I would rather just obtain an RMA, as you promised, send them to Sennheiser, and be done with it instead of filing a complaint with Amazon, American Express, posting negative feedback, and raising hell on every audiophile website out there."

The seller offered the return and yet you threaten him with all this when all you had to do was return them. And you have to go through all the filing all of this with Amazon, when all you had to do was ship it back to the seller.

Yes, the seller erred in telling you that they will get you an RMA number and then you have to send it back to Sennheiser directly. But then they offered to facilitate the return anyways, all you had to do was return the cans to them directly. Yet you still insist and sending it straight to Senn yourself?

If I were you, I would have just returned it to the seller, most likely you would have gotten a new pair in return. And about the feedback you left, what makes you think that the cans you received were not "legit"? You mean buying from authorized dealers guarantees that you will not receive a bad pair?

I'm sorry, but this is something I feel strongly about as I am an online retailer myself. And as far as I am concerned, despite the mis-advertising with the warranty process, this seller was more than fair in dealing with you, and that most issues were caused by you.

Peace, cheers.

 

[Golden Monkey]

I understand completely that there's always the possiblilty of recieving a defective item, from an authorized seller or not, that's not the issue.

One of my primary concerns before ordering these was wether or not they were covered under the original warranty. Any NEW item should be, that's not too much to ask. I was given assurances that they would be. Then I was told they wouldn't be after ordering...well, not exactly, but that they would be replaced. That's NOT the same thing.

As to having them replaced by this company, and about their "legitimacy"...TheDeliveryMan, an employee of Sennheiser, says that they have had many dealings with this company, and that they are very grey-market. Not just the fact that they are not on the "authorized" list of dealers, but that they are know to have engaged in dubious practices before. I have no guarantee that if I returned these as defective, and they did replace them, that I would have a pair that meets Sennheiser's standards, hadn't been returned, used, refurbished, or anything else. With no serial number on the box, who would know the history of the phones?

That being said, there are users selling in these very forums who have bought from them in the past as well, and have no complaints. Some even have serial numbers on the box, I'm sure. When these guys say that "I am not an (sic) dealer and my supplier keeps all serial numbers for their records", how hard would it be to actually obtain that serial number? Why can't I have it? They are MY headphones after all. Again, that's not asking for much.

This seller also sells on Ebay, under a different name (Glicco Sales). What's to stop them from selling my used ones over there as new, thereby once again profiting from misleading information?

All I wanted was my money back, which I am receiving. Am I happy about that? Yes. Am I pleased with being misled prior to purchase? No.

Umbalito, this isn't to discourage anyone from ordering from E-tailers in any way. I'm sure you're perfectly reputable, your products are coming from good sources, and your promises to customers are kept, but it's not unreasonable to be upset with being misled.

 

[TheDeliveryMan]

Golden Monkey-

Thanks for being patient with the process. Customer service has gotten so bad in the US that we are simply used to it. Thank you for not giving in to someone trying to make a quick buck. As you stated, a replacement pair of HD650's from Sarjo is still from an unauthorized dealer, and I doubt that any of the manufacturers (on Head-Fi anyways) would support a warranty claim from an unauthorized dealer.

Ever sit in a restaurant and see a mother scolding her child for putting something foreign in their mouth? You can probaby hear her right now, shouting "You have no idea where that's been!". Well, same philosophy.

Thank you for doing the right thing, and thanks for your humorous message exchanges...the victory cry was great-- I'm glad you won and knew he would cave

 

[Vaughn]

o.k. time for me to swallow my pride....

I hadn't been listening to my 650's but just playing them on a spare receiver
I had to burn them in....the few times I picked them up I didn't do any real listening but just made sure there was sound coming from both channels.

Well, damned if the left channel isn't playing several decibels lower than the right! What is going on?!?!

I ordered from the same "distributor" the op did and I have just emailed them
requesting authorization to return the 650's for a refund.

I apologize to you, Golden Monkey (never thought I would be saying those words

) for doubting the frustration of your experience.

 

[Golden Monkey]

I could gloat, but won't Vaughn, lol. I'm more glad that I'm vindicated by other user's experiences, and that I could point this out so that you and others can hopefully get this resolved. No apologies necessary, I just hope it turns out well for you! The whole purpose of posting this was two-fold:

1) Buyers, make sure you understand the ramifications of "good deals"...
2) Learn from my mistake!

TDM - thanks, you were instrumental in firming my resolve to deal with this. I was almost willing to keep them, send them to Senn for factory repair at my expense, and give up. Instead, I'm getting a great 'phone, new, covered by warranty, shipped on time, and have the peace of mind of knowing that I won't have to go through some third party if I have problems in the future. Paying $10 more for this is WELL worth it to me.

 

[Golden Monkey]

By the way, Vaughn...if you have the corrugated box cover still, does it have the serial number sticker on it? Mine was missing (something TDM pointed out to me). Not the larger label on the bottom with the UPC, but a smaller white one? EDIT - Never mind...duh. I reread your first post...

Some comments I found regarding this seller on Amazon (although most were 5/5, they might be unaware of any differences...the negatives are few, but very revealing):

3/5 - "Headphones were in what appeared to be an opened retail box. Some data had been cut from the bottom of the box. There was no warranty card. This lead me to beleive that the item was either an "open Box", a return or a refurbished item. Being unsure I requested & SARJO agreed to accept return. I paid return shipping."
Date: 4/14/2008 Rated by Buyer: Christopher W.

2/5 - "Seller removed some of the product labels from the original box."
Date: 3/13/2008 Rated by Buyer: E.J. O.

4/5 - "Fast shipping.Thanks! Item was open box with unsealed batteries and manuals.Listed as brand new. Looks new though."
Date: 3/9/2008 Rated by Buyer: lexusstyle

1/5 - "You're right, "...too many people are buying to try and returning". But it is no excuse to resell opened and returned items as "brand new, factory-sealed. You are one big liar! You sold me an open-box & I have pictures to prove it. You are a disgrace to internet commerce!! I just didn't have the time to send it back & wait for a new one due to an urgent biz trip abroad . SHAME ON YOU!"
Date: 3/6/2008 Rated by Buyer: JOHN M.
Seller Response: "I offered to take it back and fully refund. It was not an opened box. It's not hard, return it and we will reship. Do you know how many hands it cames across before arriving to you. Maybe UPS dropped it and opend it to see if it was damaged? SHAME ON YOU for over reacting. It is not hard, send it back and I will exchange it." Date: 3/10/2008

3/5 - "First one I received wasn't new and also was broken. It looked like someone cut the seal so it was hard to tell it wasn't new until I saw that the cords were all a mess and the manual wasn't sealed either. I had to pay to send it back which cost me more money, but I did receive a new one that worked. The earphones are great though."
Date: 2/26/2008 Rated by Buyer: Ronald L.

5/5 - "Headphones were in original packaging and were in mint condition, but there was no instruction manual included. Excellent value and extra-speedy shipping with tracking number."
Date: 2/5/2008 Rated by Buyer: Kevin M.

3/5 - "Strange transaction. I ordered Shure SE530s, and I got the SE530PTH model. Same thing, with more accessories, but still not what I ordered. Also, they were supposedly "Factory Sealed" but when I got them, they were not. There was no shrink wrap on the package, and it had lots of scratches. Could be brand new, could be very used. I don't know. They work just fine, so far. Still, it was odd."
Date: 1/16/2008 Rated by Buyer: Jeff H

5/5 - "Best price for this item on the market. Item arrived in the given timeframe and was brand new as advertised. I didn't like the way the seller answered the few negative reviews he got on ebay, but fortunately nothing went wrong with my order!"
Date: 9/20/2007 Rated by Buyer: sidonie w.
NOTE: they do business as Glicco on Ebay. She's right, the only responses to feedback they post are snotty replies to negative negative ones.

3/5 - "Fair. Item arrived on time. But very slow shippment it was under ground shipping instead of the express method, which I've paid the extra dollar for. Item as described. Dissatisfied with customer service."
Date: 9/17/2007 Rated by Buyer: Yu M.
NOTE: MANY complaints about people paying for expidited shipping, yet it still went ground, like mine, or long shipping times. Of course there's a lot of "wow, that was fast!" ones as well...

2/5 - "Headphones arrived in good condition, but not "brand new" as advertised. Beware that you might be getting a used product."
Date: 9/4/2007 Rated by Buyer: shlemielo
Seller Response: "You are the only person stating it is not new. I have hundreds of feedbacks that my product is exactly as stated" Date: 9/4/2007
NOTE: YOU F'N LIAR!!!

2/5 - "the left ear cup on my $300 headphones is defective and am trying to get an exchange right now hopefully it works out."
Date: 7/29/2007 Rated by Buyer: Leslie W.
Seller Response: "I said no problem on manufacturer defect exchange. Wht bad rating? I offered new exchange without hassle." Date: 8/3/2007
Hmm...this sounds familiar...

3/5 - "fast shipping. looks fake though. yes i know it "factory" condition."
Date: 4/26/2007 Rated by Buyer: parkjoseph
Seller Response: "It cost one penny. Am I that desperate to steal ONE PENNY from you." Date: 7/19/2007
NOTE: Dick...

1/5 - "DO NOT TRUST this shady business. Worst online shopping experience I have ever had, bar none. Absolutely zero communication, even a receipt. When they did finally write back, seven days later, they were disrespectful. Finally, they shipped my package to the WRONG ZIP CODE causing a whole other delay. The price is good but not that good; I will never trust "sarjo_distributions" again. No one should"
Date: 4/3/2007 Rated by Buyer: michaelschakow
Seller Response: "SHADY BUSINESS? I have a 89% postiive rating. Did I accomplish this by being Shady? I shipped. You did not get my emails because your spam blocker blocked me out. You entered the shipping ZIP CODE on your Amazon account. Am I suppose to know you entered it wrong when you signed up?" Date: 7/19/2007
NOTE: Lol...ok, that's just funny...

2/5 - "The headphones shipped did not match the picture."
Date: 3/14/2007 Rated by Buyer: Kelly K.
Seller Response: "You obviously did not read the description at all. You just clicked aways and blamed others for your carelessness." Date: 3/21/2007

3/5 - "I was a little worried when I read some of the other users comments about when and if I would get my product (I ordered the Bose IE Triports). So I emailed the seller. They got right back to me and provided a tracking number for my shipment. Product was as described. Only reason for a 3 is that the other feedback looks self padded…"
Date: 3/7/2007 Rated by Buyer: Michael K.
NOTE: My thoughts exactly. For every negative comment, suddenly ther's a whole "same day" flurry of glowing 5/5's

3/5 - "MX400 not in factory package as pictured--FAKES?"
Date: 9/22/2006 Rated by Buyer: anthonya337

To be completely fair, they have a 96% rating, with 1532 feedback responses since 7/28/06. That's about 75 transactions a month...all with feedback. They currently are selling 14 items. I guess they used to sell watches as well, but now just headphone related stuff. If you figure that not everyone leaves seller feedback, and this is (conservatively 80% of their customers), doesn't that seem a bit high for such a small amount of offered product? Dunno...