[Ruffle]

I'm a man? Really? Sorry I never suspected

I'm sure there must be track fans out there. And I know my view of this situation is harsh, but have no patience for fraud at these prestigious world athletic events. And do not view Caster as a victim. There were plenty of signs beforehand and should have addressed these issues well ahead of time. And I personally do not view IAAF's response to this situation as being unfair. I see nothing wrong with their handling of the situation, they had to make a public announcement to address the concerns of track athletes world wide. Blame the media for taking it as far as they have, IAAF is not the media. Blame Caster for not taking responsibility earlier, not IAAF. Blame South Africa from trying to hide the questions that follow Caster and failing to make it clear without a doubt Caster is a women, don't blame IAAF for South Africa's negligence.

At the World Championships, in Berlin, Germany, Caster Semenya won the women's 800m at the age of 18, with the fastest time of any women this year and 5 seconds ahead the next person. If you watch footage you can see the disgust and anger of the other participants as they watched Caster round the track with South Africa's flag around her/his shoulders.

When you look upon Caster there is no semblance of feminity. Despite being world class athletes, women still are women, they have hips, curved waste, slender arms and legs, feminine facial characteristics and breasts. Even young female gymnasts look very feminine and later grow up to be normal women usually.

Caster Semenya has lived much of her athletic career with questions about her gender. This is not new. This is old. It is the duty of every athlete who participates at IAAF events, to prove their gender since WW II, when a German man won the a women's track event. Since then there have been other athletes who failed the gender test, like the 800m silver medalist, from India who had her medal revoked.

Why should Caster Semenya be treated differently. Each person who failed received a lot of press and were publicly outted as being fraud. Caster Semenya is not a child, she/he is 18 years old, allowed to vote and drive. Here we know in US, if you commit crime at age 18 you will be tried as an adult. 18 year old women and men are fully capable of living up to adult standards and adult responsiblities, there are no excuses. Caster is an adult, tired of reading oh she is so young, should not have to deal with this issue.

South Africa was told of the rumors and suspicions. They were requested to withdraw Caster from the race. But they refused saying it was racist. Very lame response.

Women's Track and Field is not about Caster Semenya. It's about the celebration of female athletes. There is no room for unfair advantages, no drugs, no male parts or illegal or excessive level of male hormones. Blame the doctors, blame the mother if you have to, this is not the fault of the IAAF.

Women have said they refuse to race with Semenya stating he has unfair advantages. Leaked to Australian papers it would seem Semenya does NOT have a uterus or ovaries but undescended testicles making Semenya a man. A full grown male with testicles that just didn't drop. Caster also has 3 times the normal level of testosterone of any other female athlete.

How could Caster not know? No monthly periods or any visible breasts or any visible female curves or facial characteristics. And you can find videos of interview with Caster. Not even a little semblance of a woman in his voice, completely male sounding, has a lower voice than I do...

I have no sympathy for Caster and believed ran knowing he was committing fraud and should be banned from competing from any other world track events. I say banned because to me it seems to be fraud not done so innocent and unknowing. If proven Caster ran without knowing, then it's not fraud. In the end for me, this is about WOMEN'S TRACK AND FIELD. IAAF has a duty to maintain fair competition for all FEMALE ATHLETES at these prestigious TRACK AND FIELD events. This is not about whether it's fair for a hermaphrodite to run with obvious unfair advantages.

 

[ArmednInsane]

So what you are saying that you believe he is a guy? :S

I am not flaming, just not sure I understand your post. Sorry, English is not my first language

 

[TheMarchingMule]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArmednInsane /img/forum/go_quote.gif So what you are saying that you believe he is a guy? :S I am not flaming, just not sure I understand your post. Sorry, English is not my first language

I'm sure that long rant the OP will not actually be read by many people, if any.

Basically, the latest I heard was that they were mainly suspicious of "her" because she had three times as much testosterone as an average woman should. Last I read on the news, she was said to be a hermaphrodite.

 

[Ruffle]

Caster Semenya from intial reports is not a hermaphrodite. A full male. Caster does not have a uterus or ovaries, but has internal testes. Does not possess female reproductive organs.

 

[Sherwood]

Everything I've read says otherwise, Ruffle, so please back that up with something.

 

[Ruffle]

A Hermaphrodite has both female and male reproductive parts. If you read the reports, Caster does not have female reproductive parts. But my point of the posting is that I believe this issue should not be just focused on Caster. This should be about fairness of track of field for all female athletes. It is not fair that other participants lost to Caster because he has a unique situation where his testes never dropped. The other female athletes should not be punished for this nor should they be forced to run against Caster who has such obvious advantages.

 

[Sherwood]

I'm aware of what a hermaphrodite is, and I have read the reports. This one, for instance, clearly states that Caster is a hermaphrodite, not a male. I'm asking for you to produce a report that says otherwise.

 

[Ruffle]

That one obviously uses a different definition of what a hermaphrodite is. Not my problem. Blame that news source. Internal testes are not a vagina, uterus, or ovaries which are female "REPRODUCTIVE" parts.

 

[Sherwood]

Two news sources, now. I suspect I could find more. Do you have any single news source that says Caster is a male only, or is this your opinion?

 

[Ruffle]

This is not an opinion. This is a the very definition of a hermaphrodite. I really don't care if the media chooses to ignore the definition of a hermaphrodite. Nor does it make the media correct, when in fact they are wrong. A human hermaphrodite must have both female and male reproductive parts, testes and ovaries or uterus. Caster does not have ANY female reproductive parts. Not my problem if your news or media sources chooses to ignore the definition of a hermaphrodite.

Being born as a male but raised a female does not make him a hermaphrodite.

 

[Sherwood]

Here's a third

Here's a fourth

All claim that Caster posesses male and female reproductive organs, taken from the Australian leak.

I will ask again, do you have any sources that claim Caster does not possess female reproductive organs? This is not about anyone's personal definition of hermaphroditia, it's about where your information comes from. I've not found a single source that verifies your claims, and I've found many that verify mine.

 

[Ruffle]

Sorry I don't base my definition of a Hermaphrodite with the media. I base mine with the medical definition. I don't care how many news sources say Caster is a hermaphrodite, doesn't make it correct.

I can find plenty of sources as you have linked that state Caster lacks female reproductive parts. By definition that makes Caster a male. Whether the media continues to call Caster a hermaphrodite isn't my problem, it's flatly wrong unless further tests prove Caster has a uterus and ovaries.

Doesn't matter how many you link if Caster does not have female reproductive parts. Intersexuality may be a better term to be used.

 

[Sherwood]

And a fifth

And a sixth

And that last one is the most interesting yet, in part because it's from the area where the original "leak" came from, and also because it best details the specific medical difficulties of making a determination on what exactly is going on at this point, without more information.

In any case, I've seen nothing to arouse your ire here, Ruffle. This poor woman is under suicide watch because she's been raised as a woman, has no explicit male characteristics (though she does have a masculine bone structure and some facial hair, not unheard of in women) and now she's either barred from competition from being a male, or worse, a genetic mashup.

This certainly isn't a time to be upset about whether she should be able to compete, but rather to consider what this must be like for a South African woman to be told she's not entirely a woman. A terrible week, without a doubt.

 

[Sherwood]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Doesn't matter how many you link if Caster does not have female reproductive parts.

You're clearly not reading what I've taken the time to link for you. All these reports say that she does have female reproductive organs. Nothing says she doesn't. Nothing except you, which is why I'm asking you to provide some document verifying your claim that she does not have female reproductive organs. I strongly suspect you cannot.

 

[Duggeh]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruffle /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sorry I don't base my definition of a Hermaphrodite with the media. I base mine with the medical definition. I don't care how many news sources say Caster is a hermaphrodite, doesn't make it correct. I can find plenty of sources as you have linked that state Caster lacks female reproductive parts. By definition that makes Caster a male. Whether the media continues to call Caster a hermaphrodite isn't my problem, it's flatly wrong unless further tests prove Caster has a uterus and ovaries. Doesn't matter how many you link if Caster does not have female reproductive parts. Intersexuality may be a better term to be used.

As someone who has done sex and gender based anthropology, all of your internet ranting here is so much hot air. Deliniations between male, female, androngenous and hemaphrodytic are not clean and linear. It is this non linearity which results in the much larger majority of babies born with abmiguous gender being designated female than male, even if they have a Y chromosome. If you like I can look up a few papers which might offer you some interesting examples and statistics.

In the meantime, go take a chill pill and realise that no matter how hard and loud you shout that you're right, you've fundamentally got things skewed.