[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl /img/forum/go_quote.gif It developed a cult following because it was a simple, suspended sub-chassis, belt drive turntable with a hint of audiophile character. It looked somewhat like the audiophile European turntables that were the rage, but it was American made, readily available used and relatively cheap....

I think you may be selling it a bit short there. Many would hold that it was actually Mitch Cotter of Acoustic Research and not Thorens who originated the simple "audiophile" belt drive turntable concept later developed by Hamish Robertson, Ivor Tiefenbrun and others.
Certainly the Thorens TD150 and Acoustic Research XA predate the Sondek LP12 or Ariston RD11 by a good few years, and came out around the same time so an original AR is a pretty cool and collectible item.

 

[NightOwl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think you may be selling it a bit short there. Many would hold that it was actually Mitch Cotter of Acoustic Research and not Thorens who originated the simple "audiophile" belt drive turntable concept later developed by Hamish Robertson, Ivor Tiefenbrun and others. Certainly the Thorens TD150 and Acoustic Research XA predate the Sondek LP12 or Ariston RD11 by a good few years, and came out around the same time so an original AR is a pretty cool and collectible item.

Actually I wasn't trying to sell it short at all. I'm old enough to have purchased an RD11 (which I regrettably sold) soon after it first came on the market and was aware that the Thorens and AR pre-dated it. It was the popularity of the Brit tables that re-awakened interest in the AR's since they could be purchased used much, much cheaper than used Linns, Aristons, Thorens, and even Regas at the time. The whole cult thing was based around tweaking them since you could get big improvements in sound, add an upgraded arm, and still come in under the price of a TD160.
I've heard both a stock and modified XA as well as an EB101. While it's only my opinion, I would rate them below a Thorens and about even with a Rega Planar 3, with a comparable arm.

It may be a collectible, but along the line of a '65 Mustang. A Ferrari 250GTO it's not.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've heard both a stock and modified XA as well as an EB101. While it's only my opinion, I would rate them below a Thorens and about even with a Rega Planar 3, with a comparable arm. It may be a collectible, but along the line of a '65 Mustang. A Ferrari 250GTO it's not.

As I said I never heard the XA but the one they sold most in the UK was called the 'Classic' which I think is similar to the EB-101 in the USA. Over here they went for slightly more than a Rega P(lanar) 3, I think, depending on the config. Linn LVV/LVX was a common tonearm choice.

By that time there were about a dozen similar UK belt drives in this mid-price market including Ariston, Alphason, Dais, Dunlop, Fons, Heybrook, Logic, Mission, QED, Revolver, Strathearn, Walker and then the ones that still exist, so I don't know if they sold a great deal and you don't see that many of them compared to the more common or garden TD-150/160 over here.

In terms of sound quality I would take an "AR Classic" one over a Rega for sure and the build is superior to all but the Thorens TD-160 Super, although the XA doesn't look so sturdy.

There is a lot to be said for a Ford Mustang surely? still going strong in places like Havana long after a Ferrari would have rusted away. I would think an Oracle or Michel would be more akin to a Ferrari, lovely to look at but prone to breaking down frequently and difficult to get spares for...a Thorens is more like a Merc, 300,000 miles and still going strong

 

[NightOwl]

As I said in my first post, the AR has a lot of positives. It is built like a tank and probably the most resistant to vibration of any suspended table. Here in North America at the height of vinyl's popularity, you could pick one up used for $50.00. The most popular upgrade arms here were the Linns you mentioned as well as the Sumiko MMT and the Infinity Black Widow.

The Ford Mustang was a Ford Falcon in a party dress. If you ran a magnet over the Mustangs in Havana it wouldn't stick since they're all body filler. I give the Thorens more credit and look at it like a Volvo rather than a Merc.

If someone offered you a Michell or an AR, which would you take?

To the original OP. Very sorry for going far off-topic. The M97xe with the brush down, or an Audio-Technica 110e or a Grado Black should work well.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl /img/forum/go_quote.gif The most popular upgrade arms here were the Linns you mentioned as well as the Sumiko MMT and the Infinity Black Widow.

Interesting. The Sumiko MMT was actually made by the Japanese manufacturer Jelco, I mentioned above and they still make an SA- 750 which is pretty much the same so that would be a good choice. Vintage Linn arms would probably be pricey in North America so you could also look out for an old Audio Technica arm. As far as lower mass goes, the SME III would probably be the best bet, more common than a Black Widow ? much cheaper again 2nd hand would be an old ADC arm. Any of these would be a big upgrade over the stock one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl /img/forum/go_quote.gif If you ran a magnet over the Mustangs in Havana it wouldn't stick since they're all body filler. I give the Thorens more credit and look at it like a Volvo rather than a Merc.

I heard the Cubans also removed all the original V8s during the oil crisis too but I'm surprised you would rate a Volvo over a Mercedes

 

[nycbone]

The Grado Blue that came with the turntable was suspect (evidence of a hard life), so I 'downgraded' to a Grado Black. The Grado cartridges are easy to align (unlike the M97XE - or so I've read) and the sound of the Blue was starting to grow on me. So far, so good. I really like the sound with my modern Jazz LPs (pretty much all that I listen to), inner groove distortion is not noticeable on newer discs (presumably undamaged by previous stylii) and the infamous Grado hum isn't noticeable at normal listening levels (it was more noticeable with the Blue). I have an AR-XB on its way for my speaker system. It may very well get the Black.

 

[Ori]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl Here in North America at the height of vinyl's popularity, you could pick one up used for $50.00

But at the same time you could also find the Sugden BD2 for not much more. It's not suspended and therefore may not look "as impressive", but I'll take it any day vs. Empire or Thorens, let alone AR...
I'd say in today's market the BD2/A is "THE" sleeper. It does a lot of things right, including musicality. And it has a nicer tonearm than most. The real bonus is the auto-lift. If you still want to play vinyl a year from now then don't take any turntable home without it!!!
It gets "old" real fast...

 

[NightOwl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori /img/forum/go_quote.gif But at the same time you could also find the Sugden BD2 for not much more. It's not suspended and therefore may not look "as impressive", but I'll take it any day vs. Empire or Thorens, let alone AR... I'd say in today's market the BD2/A is "THE" sleeper. It does a lot of things right, including musicality. And it has a nicer tonearm than most. The real bonus is the auto-lift. If you still want to play vinyl a year from now then don't take any turntable home without it!!! It gets "old" real fast...

I don't usually comment on components I haven't personally listened to more than briefly, owned, or worked on. I'll make an exception this time since I've read about the BD2A and had two friends who at one time owned one. The consensus was that it was a good basic deck with the occasional quality control problems (motor, power supply, bearing).

The motor mount suspension was a little fiddly with three rubber bands to tune and align and the top mounting plate wore out over time and had to be replaced. The SAU2 tonearm (although better than an AR's) used a flimsily attached plastic headshell. A better metal one became available a few years later. The gimbal bearings in the arm were at a 45 degree angle which made proper cartridge alignment critical.

I'm sure that most Empires and Thorens were considered better than the Sugden. It shows you how subjective audio can be. One of my friends liked it and the other didn't. Noted audiophile, music critic, engineer and reviewer Joe Rosen (who obviously didn't like it) called it the Conni-sewer in a review. That's somewhat extreme. Considering what turntables are going for nowadays the BD2A is probably a bargain but your opinion of it is more favorable than most. It must have been popular though, since there's a Toronto audio shop that still sells parts.

I agree with you on auto-lift. I used to use one of the AT6006 safety raisers. I'd forgotten how convenient it was. I bought mine for $60. years ago. There's one on Audiogon now for $325.

 

[Ori]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl /img/forum/go_quote.gif The consensus was that it was a good basic deck with the occasional quality control problems (motor, power supply, bearing).

That pretty much sums up the basics, but it gives no clue on musicality.
The motor mount is the bare minimal and you will hear the motor. This is not the most silent turntable. The tonearm is quite decent. The 45 degree arrangement with a magnetic anti-skating fixture seems to be a good "no tweak" choice. Cartridge alignment was not too hard, but it's possible I'm just lucky...
The main advantage this design offers is the use of a low torque motor and a large ratio of motor spindle to a full perimeter of the platter, coupled with a loose belt. You do have to "help" it get to speed but the isolation from the motor is not bad and the platter spins quite steadily.
I owned an Oracle Delphi with FR64 tonearm. This was a piece of art from any angle you look at it, with way lower noise levels and much more precision. It ought to sound way better than the BD2 but I found myself enjoying music more on the little cheapo and it wasn't all due to the auto-lift...
There are those rare occasions where things just seem to "click". For me that is one of them.
I lost patience for big things that require constant attention. I want music, not a part-time job... Without this gem I'd be going full-time digital. Not that digital is bad a choice but there is a different feel to analog and I'd hate to drop it altogether. At least for now...

 

[NightOwl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori /img/forum/go_quote.gif There are those rare occasions where things just seem to "click". For me that is one of them. I lost patience for big things that require constant attention. I want music, not a part-time job... Without this gem I'd be going full-time digital. Not that digital is bad a choice but there is a different feel to analog and I'd hate to drop it altogether. At least for now...

Fair enough. The music is what it's all about.
I'm a digital user as well, but always end up back at analog. Maybe because it's what I grew up with, but it certainly has a different feel.
I still like to ocasionally tinker and tweak, but I certainly don't have the patience I used to. It's probably why I've gotten rid of most of my components and just kept the ones I've had and been comfortable with for years.
As an aside, I wasn't happy with my Linn LP12 and had my eye on a Delphi with a Syrinx arm 25 years ago. Since I was always at work and never home, my wife discouraged the expenditure as a waste of money. I sold the Linn and purchased a used Logic DM101 with an Alphason arm instead, which I've been happy with to this day. Sometimes though I wonder if I missed something with the Oracle.

 

[memepool]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NightOwl /img/forum/go_quote.gif As an aside, I wasn't happy with my Linn LP12 and had my eye on a Delphi with a Syrinx arm 25 years ago. Since I was always at work and never home, my wife discouraged the expenditure as a waste of money. I sold the Linn and purchased a used Logic DM101 with an Alphason arm instead, which I've been happy with to this day....

wow small world. I also use a Logic DM101, the later electronic version only with a Logic Datum II arm which has been revamped by Audio Origami, who incidentally is ex-Syrinx and produces his own bespoke contemporary version called a PU7.

I have read similar things to what you said about the Sugden / Connoisseur but then again, we were somewhat spoilt for choice in the UK in the late '70s early '80s, with lots of obscure but very capable belt drive tables. I actually started off with a Logic Tempo which was their budget table, which I ran for almost 20 years.

 

[NightOwl]

Quote:

Originally Posted by memepool /img/forum/go_quote.gif wow small world. I also use a Logic DM101, the later electronic version only with a Logic Datum II arm which has been revamped by Audio Origami, who incidentally is ex-Syrinx and produces his own bespoke contemporary version called a PU7.

Small world indeed. You're the only other Logic owner I've run across in many years except for someone who wrote an extensive review in TNT-Audio a while ago. Mine is the original pre-electronic version, although an electronics genius friend of mine built me a regulated outboard power supply that I used to use. It is situated on a wooden shelf (WAF), so I replaced the four feet with 3 of the original Tip Toes. Most of the time I have used the Alphason HR100MCS on it, but I custom made some aluminum armboards and have also tried it with an Infinity Black Widow, Rega RB300, Sonus Formula 4, and the original Mission 774. I thought that the Mission was the best of the rest, but the Alphason was still king. I always meant to try a PU3, but never got around to it. I didn't like the design of the PU2.

From the previous comparison of Volvo to Mercedes, this is probably personal prejudice from personal experience. I had a Volvo 240 GL that, except for regular maintenance, never needed service until the blower fan quit at 250,000 kilometres. Whereas the Mercedes 300e was always in the shop for some niggling little thing, requiring proprietary parts at a huge cost. Now I know that if you look at the cost then you shouldn't own a Mercedes, but $60. for a thermostat and $200. to install it? $25. for a licence plate bulb? $300. to replace a burnt out dashboard light? etc. I drive an older Bimmer 750i now that's been pretty good.

 

[Jacques]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ori /img/forum/go_quote.gif My thoughts on the AR-XA tonearm are that it's one step away from a rake... OK, maybe I'm a bit harsh, but precision tonearm it ain't... I'd consider first a replacement tonearm. I've got more precision and better sound from a cheap Japanese-made Harman Kardon and Technics. The only thing I regret about the AR-XA is getting rid of it in a hurry (good riddens!) a few years ago. The price went up quite a bit and I'm still trying to figure out what is it that I missed...

I sold mine few years ago during a 'life simplification' for $125.00, just before the prices went up. I seem to always have that sense of timing. Other than nostalgia, I don't see what the fuss is all about.