[bigshot]

Here comes Barnacle Phil again! Every time I say something he doesn't agree with, he pipes up to tell me I have no right to say it. Solipsism lives!

 

[OverlordXenu]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS /img/forum/go_quote.gif The OP posted what he heard on his equipment, and the post makes it pretty clear he is offering his opinion and experiences, FWIW, on the issue. He doesn't have to "justify" anything to you, as if this is peer-review journal. This is not a scientific forum. It's a forum for hobbyists to share information and experiences, help each other, etc. Geez, everytime somebody posts something like this, certain folks feel the need to jump in with the "placebo" krap and comments that imply that someone shouldn't post something like this unless they've done a DBT certified by some laboratory. Give me a break. The OP is sharing useful information about his own experience. You and bigshot should conduct your own tests if you need to confirm the inadequacies of your own hearing/perception.

Physically, everyone has the same level of hearing unless they have some genetic issue, or hearing loss or damage. So you can't really say "what he heard with his ears." Audio is only subjective to a point, and that is taste. Some people prefer altered-audio, that doesn't mean it is better.

Audio is subjective and objective...but I don't want to get into that...

 

[badmonkey]

Phil. The OP posted what he has deluded himself into believing. I am interested in arresting such delusion before it convinces the poor newbies - and people like you - who find this thread and are convinced that MP3 is unacceptable (or have existing irrational faiths reiterated).

Because it is so simple to demonstrate, I have every right to demand such proof. I assume the lack of rationale in your last sentence (which suggests a negative proof fallacy, if it needs explaining) is indicative of your (in)ability to comprehend this logic, so I'll just say: get over yourself.

 

[hciman77]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordXenu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Physically, everyone has the same level of hearing unless they have some genetic issue, or hearing loss or damage.

That is just not true, hearing ability is highly variable, look up the Fletcher-Munson hearing curves, or do a search on psychophysics. There are well documented discrimination limits but these are limits not standards and not everyone even young healthy folks have the same capabilities.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OverlordXenu /img/forum/go_quote.gif Physically, everyone has the same level of hearing unless they have some genetic issue, or hearing loss or damage.

Physcially, everyone has the same level of taste also, don't they? Why is it that some can identify very subtle differences between wines and others are totally incapable of identifying even apparently significant differnces? People have different abilities in all sorts of areas, including in the area of the senses, and the senses can also be developed with experience (another obvious example is the heightened senses of the sightless). So if you are suggesting that everyone has the same ability to hear the type of differences we are talking about, I disagree 100%, and I think comments by some on other threads in this forum that ipods sound as good as CD players are proof of the proposition that some people do not "hear" as well as others.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here comes Barnacle Phil again! Every time I say something he doesn't agree with, he pipes up to tell me I have no right to say it. Solipsism lives!

I do confess that from time to time I feel to the need to counterbalance in some small way the massive amounts of krapola that you feel compelled to spew out on these threads. But I'm not saying you dont' have "the right" to say what you do. It's just that you're full of it.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by badmonkey /img/forum/go_quote.gif Phil. The OP posted what he has deluded himself into believing. I am interested in arresting such delusion before it convinces the poor newbies - and people like you - who find this thread and are convinced that MP3 is unacceptable (or have existing irrational faiths reiterated). Because it is so simple to demonstrate, I have every right to demand such proof. I assume the lack of rationale in your last sentence (which suggests a negative proof fallacy, if it needs explaining) is indicative of your (in)ability to comprehend this logic, so I'll just say: get over yourself.

I count at least five ipse dixits in your post. You, my friend, need to get over yourself, and stop pretending you need to save the hobbyists of the world, who are here to have fun. What an ego!

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

Quote:

Phil. The OP posted what he has deluded himself into believing. I am interested in arresting such delusion before it convinces the poor newbies - and people like you - who find this thread and are convinced that MP3 is unacceptable (or have existing irrational faiths reiterated).

The OP has made it fairly clear that it his indeed HIS opinion and what HE hears in HIS equipment, and this isnt the standard or a reference journal people can refer to and find out the difference between lossy and lossless formats.

Either way, if you are convinced, good for you. If you think high bitrate mp3 is as good as lossless audio, well great! but for those who dont, good for them.

As I stated before, you might not be able to HEAR the difference between the two but as far as the formats go, one is infact LOSSY, so there is some information lost in the process or encoding. As steve said, maybe you dont know what to look for or listen for. Or maybe your equipment isnt good enough, or maybe the difference is so subtle that its hardly distinguishable

In any case, asking for a universally acceptable AB test to prove that there is a difference is just not realistic. To the OP's ears, he hears a difference, if you can't, well thats your opinion.

And who decides credibility on a free for all forum such as this? This is not a research institute and most people dont know the credibility of the other members. In one such forum, there really is never going to be a perfectly credible and universally accepted test or view point.

As for newbies, I'm sure they can read the "MY ears and MY equipment" in the original post and figure it out that it isnt the end all and be all of lossy vs lossless.

 

[badmonkey]

Quote:

In any case, asking for a universally acceptable AB test to prove that there is a difference is just not realistic. To the OP's ears, he hears a difference, if you can't, well thats your opinion.

I do not have the OP's ears, brain, equipment, or experience/training so I could not possibly comment on whether he can or cannot actually hear a difference.

I can however demand justification of any claim which appears likely, from existing evidence, to be false.

It is NOT unrealistic to ask for an ABX test to prove his claims. Again, NOTHING about this is OPINION. It has nothing to do with preference for a different type of sound. The original is the original, the MP3 is a technically compromised version of the original. One can either hear a difference, or not. It is all very easily resolved and easily tested.

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

How can you demand justification on an opinion???? If someone feels something is a certain way, that is infact an Opinion

 

[badmonkey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jilgiljongiljing /img/forum/go_quote.gif How can you demand justification on an opinion???? Thats just dumb

Shall I repeat myself for what, the fourth time?

Slowly, for the truly dumb:

This
is
not
about
opinion
...

No more so than it is my optometrist's "opinion" that I have 20/20 sight...

 

[Febs]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jilgiljongiljing /img/forum/go_quote.gif How can you demand justification on an opinion???? If someone feels something is a certain way, that is infact an Opinion

Whether the OP can hear a difference is not a question of opinion. It is a question of fact that can be readily proven with an ABX test. His subjective impressions of the character of the difference is a question of opinion.

When the title of the thread is "Can you hear the difference," then that calls for a statement of fact, not opinion. If the title of the thread were, "what do you think of the difference" or "do lossy compression artifact bother you," then that would be purely a matter of opinion.

 

[badmonkey]

Well I was going to get into a labored argument on the issue but ^ that's perfect. Very succinct.

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

bah...i don't wanna waste anymore time on this pointless thread

 

[Febs]

Let me give an example. Let's say that you have two recordings of "Hotel California": the original version from the Hotel California album, and the live version from the Hell Freezes Over tour.

Now, let's suppose I play the original version for you and say, "this is version A." Then, I play the live version for you and say, "this is version B." Then, I play one of those two versions of the song for you without telling you whether it is A or B.

If I then ask you, "which version did I play?" that asks for a fact.

If I then ask you, "which version did you like better?" that asks for an opinion.

So, suppose I repeat this test 10 times, and each time I ask you, "which version is this." For each time I ask the question, there is a right answer and a wrong answer. There is no opinion involved. If you get all 10 right, then you can say with confidence, "I can tell the live version of Hotel California from the studio version." If you get all 10 wrong, you would not be able to say with any credibility, "I can tell the live version of Hotel California form the studio version."

If the OP listened to the studio version of Hotel California 10 times, and all 10 times said that it was the live version, I doubt that anyone here would be arguing that he was nevertheless right because it's his opinion.

The comparison of a lossless version of a song to a lossy version of the same song is no different. An ABX test will play the FLAC version of a song and say, "this is version A." It will play the MP3 version of the song and say, "this is version B." It will then play one or the other, and ask you, "is this version A or version B?" There is a right answer and a wrong answer. If you identify the right version a sufficient number of times, then you've established that you can tell the difference. Otherwise, you have failed to establish that you can hear a difference.