[VocaloidDude]

So, I know that to an extent I believe that quality matters. I own a Sennheiser HD650, and I flirted with getting higher end models of headphones before, and I've poured over countless reviews. The difficult thing about headphone purchasing though, is that a lot of what you base your purchase on is simply the opinions of other people. Usually when I buy a headphone I take into account whether or not people say it's durable, or the sound quality. With amplifiers it's the same way, but I think to an even worse extent you never know when you're just buying snake oil.

It would be really nice to know what specs an amp has, like looking at computer hardware, where you can see that it has certain specifications that would indicate that you could actually use that. I really have no idea why I would be buying a more expensive amplifier, and I am always very hesitant to buy very expensive headphones. You just don't know what exactly it is they do better outside of just the opinions of other people.

There's two headphones that I am interested in getting as upgrades to the headphones that I have right now. The ZMF Ori, and the Hifiman HE500. From the reviews I have read, these would be a good complement or improvement to my current Sennheiser HD650's sound. Either way, I sort of just want a variety of headphones. I am not sure what amplifier would run these, and all in all, I just want something that will power the headphones to their full potential. I get frustrated sometimes, because I see people saying that they have old Japanese amplifiers that pump ridiculous wattage into their headphones, and then I hear other people saying that that's all snake oil.

I think the problem that I really want to tackle is knowing how I can intelligently make the expensive jump into an expensive set of headphones and amplifier at an organ severing price, because I am getting into a position as of lately where I will be able to afford such a thing. I've ever heard that there's massive diminishing returns after around the 500 dollar mark for headphones, multiple people have said that to me. Is it even worth it?

I guess an even bigger question would be, is the difference noticeable? If you were to move into a nice house after living in a cardboard box, yeah it would be noticeable. But if you moved from a nice decent mountain top ski resort retreat to a lake side decent size cabin, you might say that one was more expensive, but they're both the same in terms of how the scenery is beautiful, and the quality of life living there.

 

[kukkurovaca]

Whether something expensive is "worth it" is extremely ambiguous and subjective.

But generally, there are diminishing returns the farther up the food chain you go. The more you spend, the more subtle the improvements you're getting for each dollar.

Also, differences between amps are usually going to be much subtler than differences between headphones. So, if you want to get a difference in sound, focus on headphones first, amps second, generally. And nobody needs a $1,000 amp.

The two headphones you're looking at are relatively insensitive planar magnetic headphones. Part of the reason why you may have read confusing statements about how much and what kind of amp you need is related to this. Planars need more current than dynamic headphones with similar specs.

If you want to make sure that you will for sure have more than enough power for them, you can pick up an Emotiva Bas-X A-!00 for a little more than $200. It has jumpers you can remove to put speaker amp power out through the headphone jack. (Be careful with your hearing when adjusting volume with this setup.)

I haven't tried a setup like that, myself, and I've found that a Walnut F1 ($30) is a lovely amp pairing with my headphones that have the same drivers as the ZMF Ori. I'm listening to those headphones right now on a Phatlab Phantasy, which would have cost me like $1700 if I hadn't found a suspiciously good deal for one secondhand on ebay. Does the Phantasy sound 56 times better than the F1? Nope, probably not even twice as good. But it does have different strengths and weaknesses than the F1, and it's much better built.

 

[chimney189]

I've read many reviews of higher-end amplifiers where there was apparently no discernible difference when compared to an ODAC/O2 amplifier. Then again, it's good to keep in mind that I've only looked at SS amps. I think it's better to focus on what sound-signature one would want from a headphone and then stick to an amplifier that simply doesn't color the sound, but rather just lets the user turn up the volume when they want to hear things louder.

I've never tried tube amplifiers so I cannot comment on those. There are also hybrid amplifiers.
My best advice? Research and see which user reviews seem to 'click' or resonate with what you intuitively feel.

 

[PaganDL]

Hi VocaloidDude,

The best thing you can do is trust your own ears with a quality source you know really well, no one else.

Always demo, have lots of demos then decide what's best for you.

 

[ProtegeManiac]

Can someone tell me if 1000 dollar amps and headphones are worth it? Also, how do you choose an expensive amp?

It would be really nice to know what specs an amp has, like looking at computer hardware, where you can see that it has certain specifications that would indicate that you could actually use that. I really have no idea why I would be buying a more expensive amplifier, and I am always very hesitant to buy very expensive headphones. You just don't know what exactly it is they do better outside of just the opinions of other people.

You're not off to a good start there considering you're aware that the limitation is asking other people...but now you're asking other people.

Besides, how exactly can people say it's worth it for you? Even with the objective measures that are available nobody can determine that for you. is it worth it to you if I told you to blow $5,000 on a GTX 1080Ti SLI with a custom waterloop that will cool everything down, including a full coverage CPU+VRM+Mosfet block and a separate Z370 block so you can run games at 4K without dropping below 60fps at Extreme graphics detail settings?

Is it worth it to you if I told you to go buy a GT-R instead of a 370Z just so you can post lap times that are a few seconds faster thanks to intelligent AWD and a twin-turbo V6, plus a paddle shifter? Is it worth it to you if I told you to stop eating junk, prep your own meals instead of having more time for other things (if you don't enjoy cooking), and only buy organic ingredients from Whole Foods or at least only eat at certain restaurants, citing the ill effects on your health from eating high cholesterol, high calorie fast food? Is it worth it to you if I told you to buy a flash freezer and eat only raw fish and some kimchi on the side so you get a lot of taurine and protein without having to use cooking oil? Is it worth it to you to buy a 15deg single edge carbon steel knife that you have to wipe dry every time on the basis of a sharp knife not slipping when you cut and therefore it's safer?

Is it worth it to you if I told you that a Nikon D800E has the best high ISO performance, high MP count for large prints or for landscape photography, decent AF for anything short of action photography, plus a Nikkor 14-24 fullframe lens with so far the widest AOV out of native Nikkor lenses plus an 85/1.4? Is it worth it for you if I said that anything that doesn't scream pro work you should still spend around $2,000 on a Fuji X-T20 with a 24mp sensor that has clean high ISO performance and fast AF for stills, plus the 14/2,8 fast wide as a fantastic compromise wide angle that can do street photography and landscape/architecture shots since it has no barrel distortion despite its 21mm equivalent AOV?

Back to amps...will it be worth it to you to have to get a $5,000 electrostat headphone that needs a lot of voltage and therefore needs an electrostat amplifier that can only drive electrostats, and that you have to blow $2,000 on a Class A SET electrostat amp? Or heck...is it worth it to you to dedicate one room in your home just for the audio system, acoustically isolate it from noise (and prevent the music from leaking out so the nobody complains), then blow $20,000 on large multi driver towers that have their -3dB roll off at 35hz even at 2m away, plus two monoblock amps producing 60watts of Class A power with 117dB signal-to-noise ratio and worst case 0.01% THD if you even get to run at 600watts on Class A/B, running off a fully balanced preamp fed by a fully balanced DAC hooked up to a music server usiing only SSDs?

We could go into the minute details for planars and dynamic drivers - can this amp hit the theoretical 120dB peaks on whatever headphone while maintaining at most 0.001% THD and at least 105dB SNR? Are either worth it to you? Why not just get a $500 headphone and drive it with a $500 amp that has enough power and comparable THD+N performance?

In short, there are objective goals much like with other hobbies. But as in all of them it won't actually determine if it's worth it to you...

I think the problem that I really want to tackle is knowing how I can intelligently make the expensive jump into an expensive set of headphones and amplifier at an organ severing price, because I am getting into a position as of lately where I will be able to afford such a thing. I've ever heard that there's massive diminishing returns after around the 500 dollar mark for headphones, multiple people have said that to me. Is it even worth it?

...much less if you don't have the means to spend on it without flying to Iran or China to sell a kidney, or selling head on Craigslist several times over (and get that chain interrupted by a client who turns out to be an undercover cop). Even this streetracer who ate nothing but instant noodles for a year to build a 10second car has clear objectives, but is it worth it to anybody else to slowly kill their liver and kidneys?

In short...as much as it's OK to think about nicer stuff, you're thinking of blowing money you totally don't have anyway, and you're not even sure of the benefits, unlike a guy a who clearly knows that his camera needs to have less noise at ISO12800, a 36mp sensor, remote control, a lens with an 18mm AOV or wider, and a rock solid, heavy tripod that can handle that camera and lens just so he can create a composite shot of some landmark with the milky way appearing in the background with the stars not streaking.

In short, when you do have money, you can do two things to answer your question for yourself:

1. Order the equipment and try them out.

2. Attend a CanJam and effectively try out more gear for the price of a plane ticket and hotel room, as opposed to several repacking and return shipping.

I guess an even bigger question would be, is the difference noticeable? If you were to move into a nice house after living in a cardboard box, yeah it would be noticeable. But if you moved from a nice decent mountain top ski resort retreat to a lake side decent size cabin, you might say that one was more expensive, but they're both the same in terms of how the scenery is beautiful, and the quality of life living there.

That isn't objective either. In audio terms that's like comparing a 0.001% THD solid state amp to a tube amp with higher THD that you might find more pleasing.

 

[JamieMcC]

You might like to have a read through the three Bottlehead amplifier reviews from Loquah the Bottlehead Crack, Sex & Mainline its gives a good indication of the performance of each and how they then compare against each other. With a summary after all three reviews. I have also owned all three amps and still have a Sex and a Mainline and am in 100% agreement with his views.

https://www.head-fi.org/threads/bot...-comparison-thread-crack-sex-mainline.683012/

 

[Monsterzero]

Just the other day I was wondering if that vocaloidude ever got an HE-500,and now i have my answer....

To illustrate to you the complexity of your questions I will give you a visual example of my setup.

Pictured from L>R
Schiit Eitr-$180.00
Audio GD R2R-11-$400.00
Questyle 600i-$1200.00
La Figaro 339-$700.00 +cost of tubes.
Vintage Beyer DT990 600ohm
Not shown and directly below is a Kenwood Eleven GX 125wpc vintage receiver....paid $500.00 but have seen them go from 350.00 to 1300.00 depending upon condition.

So based upon dollars and cents I should be using the 600i to drive the Beyers since its the most expensive,right?Instead im using the 339 tube amp,as tube amps are warmer sounding than solid state and the DT990s are already bright...so in this case,price is irrelevant.

If you were to remove my tube amp option my next choice of amping for the DT990 would be vintage Kenwood,even though its the cheapest of all my options.It simply puts out more power than all my other amps and sound wise its about 90-93% of the way to the tube amp.The main differences being 3-D in staging and warmth of sound.If I didnt have the option to a/b the 339 vs vintage gear I would be content to live with one and not the other...Only after a/bing does the differences stand out,and theyre quite minimal.

I use the AGD R2R-11 as a fulltime DAC and use the amp section for my AD2000s only.
I use my vintage receivers to drive my K240 sextetts(which are quite power hungry@91db,600ohms)and Focal 905 Aria
I use my La Figaro 339 to drive pretty much every other headphone that I currently own(current gear is in my signature).
I only had the Questyle 600i on loan for review purposes and found it to be too bright and glaring,but it had tighter bass than the R2R-11.

In a months time give or take I will be replacing the La Figaro 339 with a Glenn Monster Eleven OTL,which essentially will be twice the cost,but im expecting 25% improvement...so yes law of diminishing returns is a real thing.If you spend 2Xs the cash and expect 2Xs the sound then you might be disappointed.


The takeaway is much of which amp to choose is based upon synergy,not price.Same can be said for DACs.I prefer the warm analog sound of R2R DACs vs. the sharpness and detail of D/S DACs,thus why i didnt like the $1200.00 Questyle over my $400.00 AGD.

I recall a year or more ago you asked me if the Magni Uber 2 would drive the HE-500s and I said yes,but not very well.Then you went and asked the same question in a different thread and got varying answers.As mentioned above both the HE-500s and ZMF Ori are fairly inefficient planar headphones that love juice.Both the vintage gear and 339 have the power to make both of those headphones sound great.The other gear I have will drive those headphones okay,but they will sound less full,thin,with less bass and microdetailing...but they will get loud.

Also it needs to be understood that much of this hobby is relative.Theres another member here on Head-fi who has the ZMF Atticus+AGD R2R-11,and to hear him describe the combo one would probably think that its the greatest match ever.Yet if you ask me I find the combo to be quite dull and the least amount of bass slam vs. my OTL and vintage receivers...so take opinions at face value and understand that its relative to what others have heard.

And finally anyone who tells you that using vintage Japanese amps is snake oil is either trying to sell you something or is ignorant and never tried vintage gear before.


See ya in 2019 with the same question.....

 

[Malfunkt]

You have the HD650, you already have something that is sufficiently great.

We just had a meet recently, some great headphones there including LCD-X, LCD2 rev 1, Aeon Flow, Focal Utopia among others. And there was a stack of HD600, HD650 and I'd say we'd all pretty much agree that the 650 and 600 have this unique sound.

Yes, the Focal Utopia is considerably better - but... even the owner of that headphone loves the 650. The 650 is still that good.

Heck I was even impressed by a cheap Superlux 668B - and that was under $100 with aftermarket pads.

It can be worth it. Personally, I've never spent over $1000 on a headphone. I really liked the Focal Clears, and if I hadn't already had the setup I have I might go for that. I loved the Aeon Flow Closed, and those are under $1k - worth checking out - they have an incredible smoothness - nothing quite stands out (thats a good thing) - and are very light and comfortable.