[Gurashieruro]

Having her none of their products-I think that's what makes campfire audio so impressive. Their high-end products are unique with fabulous sound no matter the choice

I would have to believe this is true for any of their products, the lower cost or just a slight step down. Maybe more than a slight I don't know

Its not only that. Even their lower priced stuff is REALLY good. Aside from my Vega, which is my favorite IEM I have ever owned or used, I love the Lyra II and Jupiter. They are all unique in their regard but perform amazing within or above their price range. The housings for their IEMs are all high-quality and constantly getting better and more unique. Honestly, I can't think of any other company I would give my money to. Plus their guys at the warehouse are cool and quite fun to talk to. For the couple of times I have called them up, it has been excellent when interacting with them. I hope they never change because its great to see a company constantly producing better and better products while never forgetting their customer service as well.

 

[canali]

with all the accolades the company gets, even on their totl stuff, it makes you question
if going to the ultra $$$ stuff of other competitors
(empire ear adel xr @ $2800..or audio 64 tia forte at $3500 or translucent) makes any sense.
i mean i get it,,,,their gear might be better and more refined (I have no clue, not having heard any) but is it double
or triple the price better.
 
would love to hear from owners of some of that other ultra premium gear and who've also tried the andromedas and vegas, to give
their imput on what makes it that much worth it...would be very interesting.

 

[nealh]

with all the accolades the company gets, even on their totl stuff, it makes you question
if going to the ultra $$$ stuff (empire ear adel xr @ $2800..or audio 64 tia forte at $3500) makes any sense.
i mean i get it,,,,their gear might be better and more refined (I have no clue, not having heard any) but is it double
or triple the price better.

I think is is a question time you jump a price range
$100-->$200 ,$500--->$1000
is something really twice as good. As price goes up most agree there is a law of diminishing returns.
Each person has to determine at what point it does not make sense or enough of a difference.

Its not only that. Even their lower priced stuff is REALLY good. Aside from my Vega, which is my favorite IEM I have ever owned or used, I love the Lyra II and Jupiter. They are all unique in their regard but perform amazing within or above their price range. The housings for their IEMs are all high-quality and constantly getting better and more unique. Honestly, I can't think of any other company I would give my money to. Plus their guys at the warehouse are cool and quite fun to talk to. For the couple of times I have called them up, it has been excellent when interacting with them. I hope they never change because its great to see a company constantly producing better and better products while never forgetting their customer service as well.

What is your impression of the difference between Vega and Lyra II?

 

[vrapan]

  with all the accolades the company gets, even on their totl stuff, it makes you question
if going to the ultra $$$ stuff (empire ear adel xr @ $2800..or audio 64 tia forte at $3500) makes any sense.
i mean i get it,,,,their gear might be better and more refined (I have no clue, not having heard any) but is it double
or triple the price better.

The law of diminishing returns starts way below the Vega and Andromeda pricing in my experience. Today I listened to ACS single and five driver models - was not fan of their triple driver really. The single driver was £199 the five driver £799 . Was the five driver better? Yes, audibly so, the soundstage was wider, the bass more detailed and layered and there was somewhat better instrument separation with maybe somewhat more refined treble. Were they 4 times better? Not not even close, the single driver was an excellent earphone. 
 
In my very humble opinion after couple hundred dollars the improvements are very incremental and after 300-400$ it is all about the type of sound you prefer because on a technical level there is not much between them.
 
At the end f the day what does it mean to say that a pair of earphones sounds twice as good? How do you qualify that? I don't think you can. All you can say is that the difference you hear is worth £600 extra pounds to you it does not mean the earphone is 4 times better or £600 better. It is all extremely subjective and relative.

 

[canali]

 
The law of diminishing returns starts way below the Vega and Andromeda pricing in my experience. Today I listened to ACS single and five driver models - was not fan of their triple driver really. The single driver was £199 the five driver £799 . Was the five driver better? Yes, audibly so, the soundstage was wider, the bass more detailed and layered and there was somewhat better instrument separation with maybe somewhat more refined treble. Were they 4 times better? Not not even close, the single driver was an excellent earphone. 
 
In my very humble opinion after couple hundred dollars the improvements are very incremental and after 300-400$ it is all about the type of sound you prefer because on a technical level there is not much between them.

thanks....have you heard the andromeda and vegas or the other ultra $$$ totl stuff? ...just gets very interesting with the large number of drivers, crossovers etc etc some are having it makes you ask just what and by how much does the sound get that much more refined to demand $2800-3500...obviously there are customers out there who buy this ultra premium gear and feel that their purchase is their 'end game' iem....just look at some who posted on the canjam forum about being blown away by the $3500 tia forte etc.

 

[vrapan]

  thanks....have you heard the andromeda and vegas or the other ultra $$$ totl stuff? ...just gets very interesting with the large number of drivers, crossovers etc etc some are having it makes you ask just what and by how much does the sound get that much more refined to demand $2800-3500...obviously there are customers out there who buy this ultra premium gear and feel that their purchase is their 'end game' iem.

No I haven't, I would have liked to but they do not exist anywhere to audition in the UK or even Europe.The Vega though is not even a multi driver earphone it is a single dd as far as I recall. 
 
I am not so sure what you are after to be honest but you are also introducing other factors in the comparison given that the Zeus is a custom - don't think it is sold as a universal is it? - and the Vega is universal. I am 100% sure that the universal and the custom of even the same earphone would sound drastically different because of how they fit in your ear.
 
With that disclaimer the highest end I have heard is a universal version of Noble's K10, couldn't tell you if I preferred it to my CE6P at all which is a third the price... They sound different, but which is better? not a clue, maybe I prefer noble's bass but my CE6Ps coherence? Maybe I think the CE6P is better for female vocals but the Noble extends a bit more at the top? Dunno really don't. If I had a custom K10 and a universal CE6P my opinion would be different?
 
I mean what is endgame ? And why endgame is something that costs 3000$? Some people have found their endgame with a 3000$ zeus a lot lot more with a 10$ pair of earbuds. And what is TOTL anyway? The manufacturers keep moving the goal post so they can extract ever more money and that is what they have to do to survive. It is all in the subjective perception of what you like in what you hear and the relative value you attach to it. If the latest multi driver does it for you great go for that if a 10 year old earbud then that's just fine too.

 

[Dillan]

You guys should read my post about the rising cost of high end audio gear. It's a subject I'm passionate about:

http//www.head-fi.org/t/815376/rising-cost-of-audiophile-equipment-and-importance-of-bias-blind-testing

Most people assume the higher priced items from other competitors are automatically going to sound better, even if just a small improvement. This mindset is killing our hobby and driving prices up like crazy because an easy way for companies to trick the community into assuming their product is better is simply to make the sales price of the item higher. We should be thanking Campfire Audio for pricing their flagship at a reasonable price compared to some of the laughable other iems out there. I'm also going to assume CA makes better products than the overpriced competitors until I listen to them side by side with an UNBIASED, preferably blind, comparison. (I still think CA would be my preference)

 

[Lookout57]

One thing I like is that Stereophile in their Recommended Components, rank the comments by Class A,  and C. But they note "Where we have found a product to perform much better than might be expected from its price, we have drawn attention to it with a $$$ next to its listing."
 
An example is in their recommended Digital Processors Class A+ (see http://www.stereophile.com/content/recommended-components-2017-edition-digital-processors#Z6Hxv6joztLuOAix.97 for why there is a Class A+). In that class you can spend anywhere from $1995 for the Benchmark Media Systems DAC2 HGC $$$ to $15,000 for the Moon by Simaudio Evolution 780D. So is the Moon 7x better than the Benchmark? Or is the Benchmark a steal? I think the Benchmark is a steal as the differences they point out makes it hard for me to justify spending 7x more. It's the law of finishing returns,
 
So using the Stereophile system, I would give the all the Campfire IEMs a $$$ as I feel that they to paraphrase Stereophile "perform much better than might be expected from its price"

 

[Metalsludge]

  with all the accolades the company gets, even on their totl stuff, it makes you question
if going to the ultra $$$ stuff of other competitors
(empire ear adel xr @ $2800..or audio 64 tia forte at $3500 or translucent) makes any sense.
i mean i get it,,,,their gear might be better and more refined (I have no clue, not having heard any) but is it double
or triple the price better.
 
would love to hear from owners of some of that other ultra premium gear and who've also tried the andromedas and vegas, to give
their imput on what makes it that much worth it...would be very interesting.

As someone shopping around for an end game IEM of late, I am thinking a bit about this issue as well. I'm exactly the kind of audiophile who is happy to spend money on expensive high-end gear if it gets results. But Campfire's stuff even comes with what seem to be already above average cables from a current expert in the cable field, whereas even some high-end IEM gear don't. IE800 cable is microphonic and breakage prone, for example. I am curious about these giant 10 and 12 driver IEM's that cost as much as a used car. But if Vega is getting great reviews with just one driver and a lower price, why bother paying so much more for a less comfortable earphone? I wonder if more does not always equal better. 
 
I noticed one of the established manufacturers talking of how his limited edition products fly off the shelves in a thread recently. I couldn't help but think - Well sure, limited editions of famous units will do that, as the market is now large enough to support that sort of thing through collectors. But that doesn't mean you should rest on your laurels in a field that has technological development always happening at a breakneck pace. Coming out with a slightly revised version of the old model and increasing the price from between each iteration by 500 to 1000 dollars starts to feel exploitative, especially when other makers are already exploring new approaches and ideas at lower prices. 
 
It's almost as if making it in this field has become an excuse to then sit back and start hyping up huge price increases on iterations of your flagship, with minimal changes to it. Just throw on some carbon fiber or milled metal casings, and charge hundreds more for a slight tweaking of a three year old model. Why not? It appears to be what the market wants.

 

[Dillan]

As someone shopping around for an end game IEM of late, I am thinking a bit about this issue as well. I'm exactly the kind of audiophile who is happy to spend money on expensive high-end gear if it gets results. But Campfire's stuff even comes with what seem to be already above average cables from a current expert in the cable field, whereas even some high-end IEM gear don't. IE800 cable is microphonic and breakage prone, for example. I am curious about these giant 10 and 12 driver IEM's that cost as much as a used car. But if Vega is getting great reviews with just one driver and a lower price, why bother paying so much more for a less comfortable earphone? I wonder if more does not always equal better. 

I noticed one of the established manufacturers talking of how his limited edition products fly off the shelves in a thread recently. I couldn't help but think - Well sure, limited editions of famous units will do that, as the market is now large enough to support that sort of thing through collectors. But that doesn't mean you should rest on your laurels in a field that has technological development always happening at a breakneck pace. Coming out with a slightly revised version of the old model and increasing the price from between each iteration by 500 to 1000 dollars starts to feel exploitative, especially when other makers are already exploring new approaches and ideas at lower prices. 

It's almost as if making it in this field has become an excuse to then sit back and start hyping up huge price increases on iterations of your flagship, with minimal changes to it. Just throw on some carbon fiber or milled metal casings, and charge hundreds more for a slight tweaking of a three year old model. Why not? It appears to be what the market wants.

When you talk about multiple drivers versus one I think the comparison shouldn't really be made and can't accurately be put side by side because you're talking about one (in this case diamond) dynamic driver versus multiple balanced armiture drivers which are totally different. And as far as "more doesn't equal better" that's absolutely true.. more does NOT equal better. Noble audio actually talks about how that's a huge misconception in the IEM industry right now. Putting one high quality dynamic driver has its pros and cons but ultimately can sound extremely good and the same can be said for putting multiple BAs in an iem.. think different but not better/worse.

As far as the fast scaling pricing and the limited editions etc.. yea we can blame ourselves for that. I wish we could organize ourselves as a community and start demanding more bang for our buck but personally I think it's just going to get worse.

 

[Emerald Core]

As one of audiophile legends said "Big speakers make big mistakes". Something has to be learnt in the IEM universe related to that quote. 

 

[Wyville]

  No I haven't, I would have liked to but they do not exist anywhere to audition in the UK or even Europe.

Yes, that's a bit of a shame. I live in the UK and would have loved to try the Campfire Audio line, but alas.

I mean what is endgame ? And why endgame is something that costs 3000$? Some people have found their endgame with a 3000$ zeus a lot lot more with a 10$ pair of earbuds. And what is TOTL anyway? The manufacturers keep moving the goal post so they can extract ever more money and that is what they have to do to survive. It is all in the subjective perception of what you like in what you hear and the relative value you attach to it. If the latest multi driver does it for you great go for that if a 10 year old earbud then that's just fine too.

I think prices are being driven up because IEMs are a relatively new technology that has become a lot more popular in recent years as a result of people carrying around their phones everywhere and discovering that compressed mp3 quality music is less satisfying. i.e. People are becoming more discerning customers. Companies jump into this by developing new technologies and have found that they can push that pretty much as far as they want because there will always be someone with cash to spare for really exclusive IEMs.
 
What is endgame? This is personal and depends on your budget, how you use the IEMs and what is the most important part of the signature. Perhaps some people who buy the $3,000 IEMs don't really know it themselves and just shop around for something different every now and then. If they have the cash, why not? Personally, I enjoy this hobby because I enjoy music and want to get the best possible resolution and most natural sound, so less analytical and more musical. I don't know where I will find my endgame IEMs, but I will take my time and mind my budget.

 

[Metalsludge]

When you talk about multiple drivers versus one I think the comparison shouldn't really be made and can't accurately be put side by side because you're talking about one (in this case diamond) dynamic driver versus multiple balanced armiture drivers which are totally different. And as far as "more doesn't equal better" that's absolutely true.. more does NOT equal better. Noble audio actually talks about how that's a huge misconception in the IEM industry right now. Putting one high quality dynamic driver has its pros and cons but ultimately can sound extremely good and the same can be said for putting multiple BAs in an iem.. think different but not better/worse.

As far as the fast scaling pricing and the limited editions etc.. yea we can blame ourselves for that. I wish we could organize ourselves as a community and start demanding more bang for our buck but personally I think it's just going to get worse.

Yeah, it will probably get worse before it gets better. The headfi market has taken on characteristics that are weirdly similar to the luxury products field, rather than consumer electronics. In most markets, growing consumer masses gradually reduce prices, and competition drives prices down and protects consumers. In headfi though, almost the opposite on both counts seems to be happening, as the larger market initially results in higher price ceilings and the competition seems to hype up prices in general as each maker tries to preset us with the latest super thingy, with ourselves to blame in part for that aspect.
 
I wonder how long this can be maintained. I realize that, in a sense, these are in fact specialized niche products that have a luxury aspect to them. But I hope it doesn't reach the point where getting a flagship IEM is the same as buying a Patek watch or something.

 

[nealh]

Yeah, it will probably get worse before it gets better. The headfi market has taken on characteristics that are weirdly similar to the luxury products field, rather than consumer electronics. In most markets, growing consumer masses gradually reduce prices, and competition drives prices down and protects consumers. In headfi though, almost the opposite on both counts seems to be happening, as the larger market initially results in higher price ceilings and the competition seems to hype up prices in general as each maker tries to preset us with the latest super thingy, with ourselves to blame in part for that aspect.

I wonder how long this can be maintained. I realize that, in a sense, these are in fact specialized niche products that have a luxury aspect to them. But I hope it doesn't reach the point where getting a flagship IEM is the same as buying a Patek watch or something.

Very insightful comments. I agree initially I can see jump up in prices but eventually the large number of consumers will force prices down as they will no longer accept the increased cost.

This clearly happened to TVs, computers, phones you name it anything with technology. Eventually a competitor will be able to make something at a much lower price point with outstanding quality and performance. People will stop chasing the high dollar products as the difference would be so small that it becomes a niche. Companies that will only cater to that high-end often find themselves in financial trouble as there's not enough customers

 

[rawrster]

I see it a bit different. There will always be different prices that are marketed towards different people which. I have no issues with this. There are plenty of good earphones in the 1k price range so it's not like there are limited options. The higher priced stuff will not have as many sales however most companies have many price ranges to hit the different markets. Also sometimes they have these higher priced stuff as an example of something they can make if money is no object and don't expect to sell many.