[JJ15k]

Not sure if I follow you?
We were only talking about technical specs..
edit: talking to djbnh

 

[JahJahBinks]

Quote:

Originally Posted by fewtch What makes you assume that with (insert piece of gear here) a flat frequency response says anything about dynamics, soundstaging, etc?

I am simplying referring to some of the posts earlier in this thread about someone saying "getting +3dB increase in bass from a cable", so my focus is only on the level change on a frequency spectrum. To measure dynamics and soundstage, well, first what someone needs to do is to translate dynamics and soundstage into objective figures that can be measured by an instrument, otherwise we can't do that.

remember that a cable is just a piece of wire, it can be used in other application. One can certainly turn a cardas sen 580 cable into a cable for videos, but how would a cable with such soundstage behave on a video? Does it make people in the video look more sexy? You see, soundstage is something only applied to audio, and measurement seeing on a scope can be applied in every application.

My point is that to characterize a cable in terms of its electrical performance is really easy, the hard question for us audiophiles is how to translate those terms only apply to audio (dynmaics, signature, soundstage and such) into electrical terms. I think this can easily turn into a project for a PhD student.

 

[PhilS]

Quote:

Originally Posted by meat01 Even if the signal is different, that doesn't mean it is audible.

Good point. And even if the signal is NOT different, that doesn't mean it is NOT audible.

 

[meat01]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PhilS Good point. And even if the signal is NOT different, that doesn't mean it is NOT audible.

agreed

Quote:

My point is that to characterize a cable in terms of its electrical performance is really easy, the hard question for us audiophiles is how to translate those terms only apply to audio (dynmaics, signature, soundstage and such) into electrical terms. I think this can easily turn into a project for a PhD student.

That is why this is a never ending debate. It is all subjective and we can't talk about the way to solve this.

 

[iSleipnir]

Just to throw in the perspective from someone who is not swayed either way: I've heard once a pair of cardas 650's vs. reg. 650's and I thought the difference was incredibly minute. This at a meet and I realize that this is not the best place to test these, and this was a while ago before my hearing became more sensitive to changes in sound. But, my point is that I think a lot of people hear cables in this setting as few skeptics will buy somthing they do not belive in. Plus I have heard many things on this board from "cables provide teh last 5% of tweaking" to "cable x doubled the bass." With such differeing statesments and such a high buyin on what are already probably $200+ headphones its easier to say "i don't belive it" than to purcahse and try a cable. Anyway, thats what I think. (And so nobody misunderstands me the tone of this post is very scholastic, not aggressive or defensive. The last think I want to do is start a war

)

-Slep

 

[RnB180]

Hi slep,
Id agree that meets are a poor place to critical listen. Especially with open cans.

 

[bigshot]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JahJahBinks I think this can easily turn into a project for a PhD student.

It wouldn't take him long to get his doctorate! An hour and he'd have his answer.

See ya
Steve

 

[clarke68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iSleipnir I have heard many things on this board from "cables provide teh last 5% of tweaking" to "cable x doubled the bass." With such differeing statesments and such a high buyin on what are already probably $200+ headphones its easier to say "i don't belive it" than to purcahse and try a cable.

I agree with this. I haven't tried "cable rolling" on any of my headphones, so I don't have an opinion about them, but the biggest barriers to entry for me are cost and the wildly varying reports about their effects.

I have tried all sorts of interconnects (cheap, expensive, diy) and have found differences are usually subtle and not always repeatable, which suggests to me that there's something else going on there than just the effect of the cable. Headphone cables may be an entirely different ballgame, but my assumption is that, if they make any difference at all, it's closer to the "last 5% of tweaking" kind of impact.

 

[philodox]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigshot It wouldn't take him long to get his doctorate! An hour and he'd have his answer.

And how would he arrive at his conclusion Steve? Sit there in a dark room by himself mumbling about science for an hour and becoming convinced? Maybe if we are lucky he might even do some ACTUAL TESTS. That would be a nice change.

 

[PsychoZX]

Quote:

Originally Posted by RnB180 Hi slep, Id agree that meets are a poor place to critical listen. Especially with open cans.

It really depends on the meet as some are louder than others. That being said, the biggest difference in cables i've ever heard was at the tampa meet. Me and Tyrion compared his 650s /w Zu Mobius to my 650s w/G52 using the dual headphone jacks of the GS1. The difference was not small at all. They almost sounded like two different cans.

 

[SemperFidelity]

I've heard spectral balance changes and level changes with cable changes too. Obviously any spectral balance change is usually very very small, and level change even smaller, assuming reasonable cables without bad solder joints or really dirty connections.

Small cues modifying the brain's signal processing, so a disproportionate effect is heard?

 

[JJ15k]

That s a good idea

 

[NotJeffBuckley]

Quote:

Originally Posted by philodox And how would he arrive at his conclusion Steve? Sit there in a dark room by himself mumbling about science for an hour and becoming convinced? Maybe if we are lucky he might even do some ACTUAL TESTS. That would be a nice change.

Dr. Richard Rolleigh, one of the world's leading physicists in the area of acoustic research, happens to be one of my professors. He's a great guy, very down-to-earth, and he gave me some advice when we were talking about headphones and speakers (he's an audio fan, as well). He told me to spend my money on the speakers, because that's the only part of the system that has a significant effect on the sound in terms of dollar for dollar worth. I then asked him what he thought about cables.

He says they're bunk, that any metal conductor of the same gauge and length (and thus of similar resistance, inductance, and impedence) with adequate shielding will perform identically. Notice many of the "higher end" cables have strange lengths and gauges; that, to me, accounts for any perceptible sonic difference. I wish I had the money to buy some of the $5000 interconnects and construct my own to their specifications but out of some very inexpensive Home Depot wire to see what difference there resides.

He's tested a ridiculous amount of cables in his own research using objective means (and his own ear to try to discern any possible non-measurable differences, as improbable as that may be), and that's what he had to say.

I'd like to see some of his test results in quantitative terms myself; I'll ask him if he has any datasheets or anything.

 

[JJ15k]

That would be appreciated

 

[Beauregard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by NotJeffBuckley ...I'd like to see some of his test results in quantitative terms myself; I'll ask him if he has any datasheets or anything.

I'd love to see them also. The topic of this thread is something I've wondered about - using whatever measures are available to compare signals at both ends of a cable to see what differences might exist.

To echo other comments, there's no need for this to turn into an objectivist-subjectivist thing. Seems like both "camps" would be curious about what's measureable - and what, perhaps, isn't.

Beau