[jackmccabe]

I have given up on the "audiophile" community, they are just so stubborn and unwilling to accept reasoning, that it makes all argument futile.
Are there actually any people who originally believed that cables made a difference but now do not (I am one of them)?
I used to believe in cables because everyone said they make a difference, I even "heard" a difference when I changed my cables,
but after a few blind tests I came to the realization that my mind had been tricking me.
I hope other people can come to this conclusion as I did as it means I spend less money and am less concerned about upgrades.

 

[Hennyo]

I wish I could show you  picture of Coffee or Diamond's cable footprint. There are 6 cables, 3 insulation types, and 3 shieldings in these cables for example.
 
I'm going to try describing this for example as best I can as there are multiple sources for this. It is meant to be scientific. But I'm 18 and am no chemist/engineer.
 
Cables = 2 (not 1) 10% silver plated cores and 1 smaller cable on the top part of the cable. (It's not labeled as to function.)  (These 3 cores are teflon bundled, and then surround by cotton, which is the most marvelous di-electric in cable choice. It is more flexible and di-electrically agreeable than polymer foam, i.e. the molecules arrange themselves to point towards the core of the cable so that once the cable is charged, (used). This is what people refer to by "burn in." It is the agreeing of di-electric structure to point in a ceartain uniform pattern around the signal cords, as this nullifies the magnetic field each cord creats and provides for less intereference, or (rfi/eri/ jitter, call it what you will).
 
The cord in the middle of Coffe/ Diamond is the 72V Di-electric Bias system, which is battery powered along with the shield near the outer of the cable just inside the teflon cable. The shield and the core (I'm guessing) function as a north and south pole of sorts if you will.
 
And the bottom 2 most cables in the cord are ground cords, which are surrounded by kevlar or polymer foam. (They are clearly each individually insulated, but the material is not specifically pointed out. I would guess kevlar, or teflon/polymer foam.
 
So, in all there are 3 shields: one around Signal/s / upper cable, one copper shielding around the inner circumference of the cable, and a weave of some sort in between the final outer shield of the cable, which is teflon weave.
 
Oh, and then the soldering is some sort of "weld inter" method I saw somewhere on it. All contacts on both ends are Silver plated for minimum distortion.
 
I know it sounds vauge but that's the best I can do to describe the actual build of the cable.

 

[Hennyo]

All I know is that there are engineers behind this and a lot of work goes into this. They want top notch sound just like you do. On a forum it might sound like bs, and probably more-so if you're already skeptical, but hear them and oh boy!

 

[tim3320070]

Quote:

 

Exactly! ^^ to first part. We all know that there is a difference (often drastic in high end audio equipment and low end euqipment, however drastic can often mean only 5-15% difference in sound quality, But that 5-w/e % can seem like a 30, or enven 40%+ to the sound appreciation and perception of the sound. and it is discernable, it makes it more artful, wider, and pleasing presentation. There are reviews and information on these cables, and each review finds each cable does sound differently. Unfortunately though, it is all subjective to the listener, and many of these reviews are in German. Personally, I would say that recabling improves the way I enjoy sound by 30%, and that's 30% I do not want to go without. I still A-B my stock cables now and then just for kicks and giggles, reveling in the level of detail intelligent upgrades do yield.
 
On the higher end cables such as the 550$ Diamond or Coffee it better sound better. We would expect it to, or nobody would buy it. Again, in my subjective opinion the Coffee produces the most loving "proffessional monitoring" but still warm detail sound, and when paired with an analytical source you hear everything in your recording. with the 650 it's a sheer winner, and with the grado it bumps my toe tapping to new heights!
 
You cannot unprove or prove it to the average folk. They just have to try it out and see what they think about it. Some may find it's not worth the money, I however, have simply found that it is. And I have scrutinized many a audioshops inventory, gone out of my way, and spent hours to reach my conclusion. To me the difference is clear as day. It is not placebo, and is a worthwhile to at least try out if you're that skeptical.  I would like this thread to become a "witness thread" where all those who've recabled either their headphones or their source cable share their findings with the word.
 
I cannot post anything more strongly as it will be flamed, so try it or live in darkness never knowing for yourself. That's all there is to it. If you hear the difference, then that's great, but don't give it a flame before at least dipping your toes in the water. And if you have given it a try and didn't appreciate it, come back here and flame me all you want. All I can say is that it seems the only people who flame are people who've never once put their hands on anything besides the stock cable, so how would they really know?!
 

So you have a $280 usb cable for a DAC/Amp and headphones that cost about the same each? To me, that is unbelievable. You said it all when you stated "it better sound better. We would expect it to, or nobody would buy it"- they got you hook, line and sinker buddy.
 

 

[jackmccabe]

Cable manufacturers are also not allowed to state that their product provides an improvement in sound over a stock cable as they cannot provide any evidence for this.

 

[n3rdling]

While you're finding the links to the intellectual property you referred to earlier can you also name some of the engineers behind these cables and what new science they've tested and confirmed as any reasonable engineer would?

 

[Alghazanth]

Quote:

Cable manufacturers are also not allowed to state that their product provides an improvement in sound over a stock cable as they cannot provide any evidence for this.

Monster?

 

[jackmccabe]

Not even monster are allowed to say their cables sound better.

 

[Hennyo]

And yet again another person never tried aftermarket cabling. What a shame. I worked my way up to it. And after personally temporarily buying 1400$ of cables and demoing them all for 3 weeks, and hearing 1500$ more of cables at shops on tested different systems to see what generally works with what, I settled with the Coffee for my situation. I started with stock, then found it lacking to my ears, so I went back to my dealer and asked him how I could improve my sound. Then I moved onto Cinnamon, then Carbon, Then tried some wireworld, then some toslink, fiber optic, and coax cables. After that, I demoed for fun at store to store with their cables just for kicks whenever I was in the neighborhood. And Finally, I ended up with the Diamond and then the Coffee. It has all been a very fun experience for me and I believe that reacabling is one ofthe advantages headphones have over speakers. That's my opinion.
 
We all know monster cabling is a joke.... Do you know any Audio stores who carry monster? They'll only carry monster if they already have a few brands in shop. Buy any audio cable from a cable-only manufacturer, lo and behold, there is a difference, and it is not distrorting. It is clearer, crisper, and worthwhile investing or at the very least demoing so that you can come to your own conclusions. I personally rarely use headphones with stock. At that point I prefer mid-highish end speakers fed by a sound card.

 

[Hennyo]

The battle I've had going on lately is 700$ per monitor Apex speakers vs recabled headphone systems... Now that's a tough battle not for here, but alas, speakers are far more expensive.

 

[Shike]

Quote:

And yet again another person never tried aftermarket cabling. What a shame. I worked my way up to it. And after personally temporarily buying 1400$ of cables and demoing them all for 3 weeks, and hearing 1500$ more of cables at shops on tested different systems to see what generally works with what, I settled with the Coffee for my situation. I started with stock, then found it lacking to my ears, so I went back to my dealer and asked him how I could improve my sound. Then I moved onto Cinnamon, then Carbon, Then tried some wireworld, then some toslink, fiber optic, and coax cables. After that, I demoed for fun at store to store with their cables just for kicks whenever I was in the neighborhood. And Finally, I ended up with the Diamond and then the Coffee. It has all been a very fun experience for me and I believe that reacabling is one ofthe advantages headphones have over speakers. That's my opinion.
 
We all know monster cabling is a joke.... Do you know any Audio stores who carry monster? They'll only carry monster if they already have a few brands in shop. Buy any audio cable from a cable-only manufacturer, lo and behold, there is a difference, and it is not distrorting. It is clearer, crisper, and worthwhile investing or at the very least demoing so that you can come to your own conclusions. I personally rarely use headphones with stock. At that point I prefer mid-highish end speakers fed by a sound card.

Funny how you make all these accusations about those not claiming to hear differences in cables never having tried them.  It's really sad: I've tried various ones too -- thankfully never purchased them because guess what?
 
They don't do jack.
 

 

[Hennyo]

Quote:

Cable manufacturers are also not allowed to state that their product provides an improvement in sound over a stock cable as they cannot provide any evidence for this.

Even if they did, you would not believe them, there are many who would right it off as mumbo-jumbo anyway, and even if they did benchmark their gear, the majority of people are very skeptical anyway, or might not understand the evidence in laymans terms, so why not just let people hear their cable and make their minds up? If there was no difference, expensive cabling would not exist, and the many, many, high end cable companies out there would not make ends meat, so obviously somebody cares, and some people out there have gone the very short distance to at least try the unconventional cable upgrade approach in their own systems - be it speaker or headphone. Often times again, people are so happy with their recable, they leave head-fi for a short time. This is a very common occurrance.
 
 
You've got moon audio, headphile, APS, Wireworld, Audioquest, Cables unlimited, ALO, Cardas, Kimber Cable, Mogami, and the list goes on and on and on. It's just like the opening page on Audioquests website: "Experience the difference." Nobodies interested in the science behind each cable, and they're not trying to explain the science to you. They're interested in how it will improve/change the sound, the presentation, the texture of the wave, lowering the noise floor, ect, in all the variety of possible ways that entails. Cable makers are very passionate. It's hard work differentiating your product and you just let people try it. If they like it and it is legit, like any business, they'll grow, so you cannot possibly discredit that there is no difference. And it is complete rubbish to begin about doing so if you never tried it. Do NOT but about it. Trust and try. It will live up to your expectations. It's a far more profound change than you think. You will NEVER go back to certain cables again. They are important, as much as some would for some reason like to deny the possible (I have no idea why) increase that they pose. And it really is reasonable, again, you may find that cabling brings new life to your system.

 

[Hennyo]

N3rdling, I totally agree with you. Those two sentences require much more work than their lettering could possibly stand for. However, I will try. There are very scarce, but refer to my above post as to why - ^^ - there's not much "documentation" on the interwebs.
 
Kimber Kable poses quite a lot of documentation as to what Ray Kimber did. (I have actually spoken to this man in person, as Kimber Cable HQ is not 6 miles from my house here in Ogden, Utah. 
 
That is probably the biggest source I know of, but then again I have not really gone looking for source. I just hear the cables. And enjoy getting my hands on as many as I can. - A cable whore, of sorts. ;p
 
Drew Baird @ Moon Audio has done some great cable design/prototyping and research which many of us here on this forum use. He's very popular.
 
Audioquest has some documentation on their website on DBS as they were the inventors of it. (However, I don't know which engineer played the biggest part in it as they have several.) They also have what I felt was a pretty accurate review on their cables they just posted on their homepage. (albeit in German) ( I came to all the same conclusions on their usb line that the German reviewers did. As did a plethora of freinds and acquaintances? What do I need to start a petition?
 
 
http://www.pearlaudiovideo.com/blog/company-areas/audioquest-area/audioquest-visit-audioquest-usb-cable-listening/ That's a short sweet review done by an Oregon man on the difference between the audioquest line. My observations are in line with his. If these other people can certainely hear a difference from all around the world, then you certainely can too. It is not a myth. Try it
 
 
 
 
 

 

[The Pell]

Someone should set up a DBT for a headfi meetup, and test it (and then post results in the correct forum).
 
Its amazing that all these companies offering expensive cables talk about how they spent so much time and effort on the science and engineering, yet cannot show any results of their efforts.
 
With that being said, I am still amazed that not a single person that is for the expensive cables has posted anything with any data in it. Easy way to end the debate: If you want your expensive cables because it makes you feel better or because it looks better, than just say so. Its like painting a car. If it looks good and makes you proud of your gear, do it. But, if you are going to say that it sounds better, than provide some data and show us the delta between cables.

 

[Hennyo]

You're only arguement from a factual point of view, is that "it's digital." Well I'm here to prove as best I can over a forum to you that Audio "Digital" cables do not handle musical number/sine wave/ whatever transfer the same way that digital handles video. Video remains in a digital format. Audio obviously does not. And as you can see, anybody who's heard a half bottomed cable all agree. They all have a voice of their own that CANNOT be downplayed any longer to this HI-FI seeking audience.