[Hennyo]

EDIT: This is a cable material objective analysis only, and no other elements/techniques in cable manufacturing will be covered in this post.
 
And yes, it can. Copper is 7% less conductive than silver and produces a more veiled sound. It is warmer, detailed, and I daresay a tad fuller than silver, (due to it's warmeness) but silver is where the money really is, both figuratively and literally. The problem is cabling can either make or break a system.
 
For example, if you have too have all silver cables in your system the detail will be breathtaking, but at the cost of musicallity. Digital music is, in essence, data, and with too much silver it sounds more like well, data. It sounds like numbers being spwered at you rather than gorgeous, astonishing art.
 
And the only way to aleviate the dual silver problem is to have one of two things - Either a straight up tube amp (preferably not a hybrid) or have a very nice DAC. And I mean very nice. The least expensive I've heard that made dual silver sound stunning and was the best sounding system I've ever heard due to silver being the most conductive element. was a 2200$ Oppo DAC with the newest Sabre chip in ECS's line released this January.
 
(fun fact, the only material more conductive than Silver is graphite, which is not an element and is rather hard to make cables out of as it's only 1 atomic layer thick.) This is why proccessors with graphite sheenes have reached upwards of 170GHz. Graphite is supreme as far as conductivity, a pure carbon with very loose electrons and a single atomic layer thick is it's uniqueness. - moving on.
 
What most people find very versatile in cording is a copper core signal cable with a thick silver plating - anywhere from 1-10% at thickest. After about 8% silver plating it becomes very hard to create hybrid cables because you run out of di-electric. These cables sound so agreeable because cabling is most energized at the very exterior edge of the cable - i.e. this is where the majority of data passes through a cable. Say 40% of what you hear travels along the outermost 10% of cable area, so a 90%, copper, 10% Silver cable strikes a profound balance - a best of both worlds if you will. These cables work very well in just about any system for signal transfer, and can be ideal for both headphones or speakers.
 
(fun fact, Audioquest's "Coffee" 10% silver coat usb cable is the thickest silver plated cable every produced. Of all the cables I've heard, this one strikes the fine balance between detail, transient, fun, dynamically wide and expanding soundstage, and as close as you can get absolute pinpoint accuracy and seperation between notes and duets/meters. This observation stood true across all systems tested.)
 
Now onto copper. This one's hard to explain as well, everybody uses it (and at this point I'm worn out.) Copper sound is more varying than any other core material. It will be warm, that's a given, but that is the only given. There are different types of warmth and this is the kind of describing that makes the cable debate so hard to well - describe. (or talk about) It depends on how it is deoxygenized and moreso depends on size and braiding than the other materials/hybrids, because it is more impedent. You can match silver's conductivity with the right gauge copper, but you will need a garden hose, and even then, it will not match a Silvers unmatched zip and pang throughout the spectrum. Copper is the mushiest sounding of core material choice - by far.  And it's sound is much more dependent on all factors / techniques / that went into making the cable. the best sounding copper cable I've ever heard - signal or power (headphone) was Drew Baird at Moon Audios "Blue Dragon V3." Drew does some very impressive stuff over there and that was my favorite between it and the euqinox and Zu cables I've heard.
 
Well designed Copper core designs make great speaker cables - because they are cheaper to produce and copper provides that "tinted (but fun) window" - "pump up the volume" sound.
 
and from here things get more/very sticky: This is where cable design and science comes in. How square can you make your sin wave, etc? Di-electrics? Real engineering properties. Magnetic wave canceling? And more. There's A LOT more to design and cable science / blueprint than there is to cable material choice. It's a lot of intellectual property that makes cable designs sound so different while still being made out of the same material. Headphones are special because it costs FAR less for them to benefit from this design than it does for speakers to. And paired with headphones already analytical nature recabling makes headphones - expression - ROCK. They become analytical gods.
 

"I'm into headphones because with a headphone, you're listening to a page of music, you hear the harmony and melody for what it is, and all the subtle nuances in the music astonishingly pop and dance intricately as a poem or page of sheet music in your ear." Headphones truly are a miracle.
 
This is why I'm into headphones. ^^ I described it as such a couple days ago.
 
There's an admirable amount to cable design, and that can't be written off. There's a very large variety of cable companies for a reason. And I'll tell you as an investigator, It makes a difference. It makes a very large difference. And I have been very satisfied with my research. Yes, I think it can be called research.
 
EDIT: Skip to page 3-4 - where thread currently stands
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[hotsport]

Every thread involving cable debate is always fun to read.

 

 

[upstateguy]

 Response to a troll has been deleted.  I have nothing to add to this thread split.

 

[Hennyo]

 
I myself find myself down the middle as first and objective thinker, but ultimately what sounds better? This is where the subjectivist comes in. Don't you get it? Those who do know of the benefits of recabling don't often talk about it. They've reached their holy grail, and then use the cabling they like from then on in their systems only speaking about it if someone directly asks them about that cable for direct comparison. Many of them generally leave the forum for a bit - satisafction -  or to the next piece of gear with their new obtained Sonic enhancing knowledge. "Sonic enhancing" might sound a titch arrogant, but really? What else do you call it?
 
The only reason I hopped in is because I and they are tired of seeing a new thread every 3 days arguing the benefits of recabling and getting nowhere. Because the "nonbelievers" won't give us "believers" the time of day, and refuse our advice. They don't want to believe us. Everytime somebody speaks up and says they do make a difference, H311 BEARS DOWN from a slew of people who've never tried it on that poor guy. So why hop in? It's not like you'll actually try it. Why even try to dispel the myth? I'll still enjoy my gear regardless of you enjoy yours, sp if you're not willing to just buy a decent aftermarket cable and then return it, why should I waste my breathe? This is why the majority just gave up. You cannot help somebody get the most out of sound if they do not want to be helped from somebody at least relatively educated, so why try??
 

 

[upstateguy]

 Response to a troll has been deleted.  I have nothing to add to this thread split.

 

[Hennyo]

O.K. Well I hope I at least helped you a little bit and maybe you'll try it. I may even get some pms thanking me, who knows.

 

[Hennyo]

Quote:

 

Looks to me like one square's having a good time. Much more fun than the other square's

 

[upstateguy]

 Response to a troll has been deleted.  I have nothing to add to this thread split.

 

[DaBomb77766]

Okay, Hennyo, I don't want to get into an argument here because flame wars and arguments are always counter productive.  I respect your opinion and believe that you can tell a difference with your cables.
 
However, why haven't you ever actually mentioned blind testing?  Say what you will about how there's a difference, if you see what you're testing there will always, always be a bias.  It's simply an unavoidable fact.  You may feel that you're unbiased, and you in fact are, subconsciously.  There's nothing you can do about that, if you're doing sighted testing.  Blind testing is easy to accomplish, and anybody can do it without any special equipment.  All they need is the equipment they're testing and good scientific methodology.
 
Of course, that shouldn't be done on this forum and if you do decide to blind test something, it should be taken to the sound science forum since it's not allowed here.  But you said yourself that you like to see yourself as an objectivist.  But the only way to truly be objective is to derive your beliefs from an objective form of testing.  Sighted listening is, by its very nature, subjective.  You can't change that.  But blind testing, on the other hand, is not.
 
But again, any further talk of this should be taken to the sound science forum.  This isn't the place to talk about this.

 

[Hennyo]

Quote:

Every thread involving cable debate is always fun to read.

 

Well this thread is not supposed to be fun to read. It's supposed to be educating and engaging in the interest of data. Fun is just something produced on the side. How's that for objective?
Only problem is, cable measurement is kinda objective (upstate guy). it's really something you just have to hear. Or see - Like climbing to the top of a mountain and realizing for the first time just how much you can see. These are not pretty analogies. I'm trying to make these as literal as possible. Experience = beauty. The subjective and reasoning side of the debate if you will. Democrats are objective. Conservatives (not Republican) are subjective.
 
And I'm the roflmao dude watching them all duke it out not getting anywhere. Personally, I find politics a paradigm meant to keep the public eye from what's really going on. There are some truly evil people out there.... "In America, People have power, but people who don't pay attention are easy to manipulate" - Mayer De Rothschild

 

[Hennyo]

Quote:

Okay, Hennyo, I don't want to get into an argument here because flame wars and arguments are always counter productive.  I respect your opinion and believe that you can tell a difference with your cables.
 
However, why haven't you ever actually mentioned blind testing?  Say what you will about how there's a difference, if you see what you're testing there will always, always be a bias.  It's simply an unavoidable fact.  You may feel that you're unbiased, and you in fact are, subconsciously.  There's nothing you can do about that, if you're doing sighted testing.  Blind testing is easy to accomplish, and anybody can do it without any special equipment.  All they need is the equipment they're testing and good scientific methodology.
 
Of course, that shouldn't be done on this forum and if you do decide to blind test something, it should be taken to the sound science forum since it's not allowed here.  But you said yourself that you like to see yourself as an objectivist.  But the only way to truly be objective is to derive your beliefs from an objective form of testing.  Sighted listening is, by its very nature, subjective.  You can't change that.  But blind testing, on the other hand, is not.
 
But again, any further talk of this should be taken to the sound science forum.  This isn't the place to talk about this.

Now I just admire your points lovingly. I'm not kidding. I mean it. It is just innocent, as are many who've never tried.
 
You keep telling somebody to prove it blind test, what would you have me do though? Get on a video blind folded "hurr durr.... This cable is x cable. It sounds this way and this way and this way." I'll say it again, you are inoccent. 1000/1000 times, I would pick what cable I'm listening to. As would you, or any person with human ears attached to their head. This is fact.. I've shown my system which I've enjoyed for probably about a thousand hours at this point to anybody and everybody who comes over, even friends friends.
I don't know how else to alphabetically put it in the English language, I've demoed over 30 people (parties, get togethers, hanging out, etc, etc) over the last 90 days and all but one of these "test subjects" (I was really showing off the fruits of my labor) instantly appreciated the difference in sound signature each cable would provide, all of which clearly above sound reproduction they've ever heard. Only one of them could not much difference, and he's hardcore tone-deaf and never listens to music. 
 
The difference is not subtle, and would it matter how many signatures I brought to prove otherwise? At some point, you just have to try it, because there's no other way you'll believe me. It's nearly as unequal in sound as it is swapping headphones on the same system, except cabling echances and/or morphs the weaknesses of the headphone to your favor. I could go on and on about it, but you'll probably refuse. It's just something you have to try, like doing anything you love for your first time. Paint-balling, Swimming, hiking, w/e. The fruits of my labor are so painfuly and obviously, clearly there. I for one wanted to post on this topic to lay it to rest as absolutely and unequivecolly as possible. It's time people wake up and go demo something themselves.
 
similar to tube rolling, although this is more distinct change as it is not a buffer sound, but carries the signal that your DAC receives. I can't make it sound less mystical, and I can't make you go buy a cable, but I can pour all my experience and passion into the thesis that Y.O.U. W.I.L.L. A.P.P.R.E.C.I.A.T.E. A.F.T.E.R.M.A.R.K.E.T. And unless you're 1/30, you will not regret it.
 
 
 

 

[Hennyo]

I don't mention blind testing because there's no point.
 
I'm a completely logical, 0 emotion interference type tinker, but at some point you just have to let logic go, and take the jumpSUBMIT on the cable. That's how cables are anyway. For me it was easier because my first dealer had some aftermarket cables on hand - Hundreds of different Audioquest and Wireworld cables. Personally Audioquest rocked for me.
 
This is not an add but I fell that anyone who wants to try an aftermarket cable should try an Audioquest Cinnemon or Carbon USB. Even Forest would provide something stupendously better than your stock usb cable. Carbon is for those who want a taste of excellence, but are still dollar concious. I worked my way up the entire usb line in particular before I settle with Coffee for my system, but I had Diamond for a little over 3 weeks. I missed it after I let it go.
 
It is somewhat funny though, I'm conifdent that if any of you tried Diamond, Coffee, or Carbon, you would S*1t yourself grinning from ear to ear. I heard many more cables than this, and most oldschool cable gurus believe that coax or super high end quartz/glass Fiber optic is the real nirvana in signal cable, but I and others who've heard like the AQ Usb's best. Some real efforts have been made in usb in the past year, and with DBS, they really outshine even the super high end Coax. Glass they're about on par with though, but that's still more money for a very close sound. Your nearest aduio store probably even carries these particular cables.
 
Cheapy, lose all my information Platic fiber toslink < 35 dollars
High end toslink: 90-150$ (I use this for my speaker system) Bang for buck speaker signal wire - good match for 650-1000$ speaker setup -
Quartz fiber = around 300-450 dollars
Glass fiber = generally around 450-700 dollars
coax 320-600 dollars
usb = much cheaper sound for dollar, all the way up to the 500$ Diamond mark. which is the most serious attempt in usb thus far.
 
Try a Cinnemon or a Carbon. Preferably the Carbon as it gives you a taste of the high end stuff.
 
 

 

[svyr]

Hennyo,

please let us know more by attacking more members, and denying measurement and comparison/rating with bias and placebo controls ... We really appreciate the months of hard work it takes people to make up deceptive and misleading audio marketing material to extort money out of particularly gullible individuals too happy to buy and suggest others should too (despite the two methods above suggesting the audible difference without the bias is not there and you just wasted $800). We completely support those efforts ...
Do not under any circumstances look into the power of group suggestion and its effect on perception/rating/comparing or why we need objective measurement or bias controls ... Please continue to indulge in the parties described above and suggesting that unless people buy and aftermarket USB cable they're the plebs ...



>I myself find myself down the middle as first and objective thinker, but ultimately what sounds better? This is where the subjectivist comes in.

>It's a lot of intellectual property that makes cable designs sound so different while still being made out of the same material.

we need to give Hennyo a medal, I don't think I've ever laughed that hard at someone's expense.



>You keep telling somebody to prove it blind test, what would you have me do though? Get on a video blind folded "hurr durr.... This cable is x cable. It sounds this way and this way and this way." I'll say it again, you are inoccent.

they want you to do what this forum is supposed to be free of ... (forum title)

 

[DaBomb77766]

Quote:

I don't mention blind testing because there's no point. SUBMIT

 
Well, that's the problem.  There is a point.  Placebo effects can be extremely powerful, and sometime are beyond your control.  Like this, for example:
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-lN8vWm3m0
 
That said, I guess I'll just have to try aftermarket cables myself to see if there is a difference.  I just don't have any headphones I can do that with right now.  I definitely won't be spending much though, and I'll only get ones that I think look nice enough to be worth the price cosmetically alone...

 

[Hennyo]

Alright I'm out, """"

"""" "and good riddance" I can't take it anymore, I'll enjoy my ****, and You'll enjoy yours. No need to subject myself to this ill educated, close-minded, sad, sad, BS. O.K. YOU DA BOSS, YAAA, Go Man go!! I have no reason to make any of this up, it's meant to be informative, you know, for those who actually care about what they let into their ears. This is why nobody screws with it, because the trolling of good information is just too hard.
 
This is why this topic is so hotly debated. You have those who have tried it, and those who have not. Live with the ignorance. ENJOY.

I wash my hands of this thread. For those who have at least a piqued interest, try something out, and pm me your findings. All but the tone deaf guy have been able to tell folks, all but the guy who never listens to music. What does that tell you logic? I mean really. Sigh, I hope this thread goes somewhere.