[perestroika]

Hi!
 
A few weeks ago, I came to your lovely forum looking for advice about headphone amplifiers and Beyerdynamic DT880s. Now, my plans have changed: I'm moving in to an apartment with my long-time girlfriend, and we both enjoy music so much, it makes sense to use speakers instead of headphones. I have a pair of bookshelf speakers now, an older British brand that is fairly neutral, but I intend to upgrade to a set of B&W bookshelf speakers down the line. At first, I wanted to buy a Bryston B60 SST (I grew up with a Bryston + B&W system, loved the sound), but given the small listening space I will have, I feel that the capability of the Bryston might be underutilized. While I love the neutral sound quality that Bryston is known for, and how they are literally an hour drive away from me, I am looking for other suggestions.
 
So, to make a long story short, I'm looking for a low-powered integrated amplifier with a clean, neutral sound, and a similarly-voiced DAC to go along with it. My budget for Bryston equipment was around $3000 (I managed to find a used B60 and BDA-1 for around that, but I refrained from buying), but if my goals can be done well under $1500, I would be happy with that.

 

[Koloth]

My ultimate recommendation for an integrated amplifier + DA-converter for under 1500$: The Peachtree Audio Nova: http://signalpathint.com/index.php/Nova/Nova.html
 
For only 1199$ you get a really good 2x80 watts stereo amplifier with a DA-converter that has received rave reviews and can really hold its own among the days favorites (benchmark dac1, etc what have you...). It includes a tube preamplification and a class A headphone amplifier (in case you'll still get those Beyer 880s ). Honestly even without the headphone amp: This is the best I've heard so far for a dac & amp under 2000$. Its pretty, its reliable, its high-tech. I really suggest you try to have a listen to one of those somewhere!
 
Save the remaining 1800$ or 300$ and use them on better speakers (where you'll hear much more of a difference than in electronics!).
One question though: Why do you wish to use B&W speakers if its "a clean, neutral sound" that you're looking for? B&W are fairly renowned for a darker, warmer sound. While there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (I myself very much enjoy such a sounding) they definitely arent neutral!
 
If you really want neutral and clean bookshelfs for resonably much money, here's another killer-recommendation: The Roksan Kandy2 TR-5 bookshelf speakers: http://www.roksan.co.uk/roksan/roksanpage.php?pageno=29
Roksan is one of the most respected british electronics manufacturers and their small speakers are really the best I've heard at this price point. This is the first time a ribbon tweeter doesnt sound just way sharp and aggressive to my ears but really blends in with the rest of the acoustic spectrum (For example I hate Monitor Audios famous Premium series with a passion! I'd rather take the Roksan TR5 than the 2-3x times as expensive PL100!). Now the TR-5 arent monsters when it comes to bass quantity. If thats one of your priorities: Go look somewhere else, but in terms of simple refinement, detail and overall enjoyment of music those speakers are incredibly hard to beat imho. They should go for somewhat around 2500$ per pair (probably less) in the US (calculating based on the Swiss pricing) and they make a great combination with the Peachtree electronics. Together the whole setup would cost you well under 4000$!
 
Good luck with your search!
 
Best regards!

 

[perestroika]

Quote:

My ultimate recommendation for an integrated amplifier + DA-converter for under 1500$: The Peachtree Audio Nova: http://signalpathint.com/index.php/Nova/Nova.html
 
For only 1199$ you get a really good 2x80 watts stereo amplifier with a DA-converter that has received rave reviews and can really hold its own among the days favorites (benchmark dac1, etc what have you...). It includes a tube preamplification and a class A headphone amplifier (in case you'll still get those Beyer 880s ). Honestly even without the headphone amp: This is the best I've heard so far for a dac & amp under 2000$. Its pretty, its reliable, its high-tech. I really suggest you try to have a listen to one of those somewhere!
 
Save the remaining 1800$ or 300$ and use them on better speakers (where you'll hear much more of a difference than in electronics!).
One question though: Why do you wish to use B&W speakers if its "a clean, neutral sound" that you're looking for? B&W are fairly renowned for a darker, warmer sound. While there is absolutely nothing wrong with that (I myself very much enjoy such a sounding) they definitely arent neutral!
 
If you really want neutral and clean bookshelfs for resonably much money, here's another killer-recommendation: The Roksan Kandy2 TR-5 bookshelf speakers: http://www.roksan.co.uk/roksan/roksanpage.php?pageno=29
Roksan is one of the most respected british electronics manufacturers and their small speakers are really the best I've heard at this price point. This is the first time a ribbon tweeter doesnt sound just way sharp and aggressive to my ears but really blends in with the rest of the acoustic spectrum (For example I hate Monitor Audios famous Premium series with a passion! I'd rather take the Roksan TR5 than the 2-3x times as expensive PL100!). Now the TR-5 arent monsters when it comes to bass quantity. If thats one of your priorities: Go look somewhere else, but in terms of simple refinement, detail and overall enjoyment of music those speakers are incredibly hard to beat imho. They should go for somewhat around 2500$ per pair (probably less) in the US (calculating based on the Swiss pricing) and they make a great combination with the Peachtree electronics. Together the whole setup would cost you well under 4000$!
 
Good luck with your search!
 
Best regards!

Hi Koloth, thanks for the quick reply. I've always operated under the assumption that B&W speakers are fairly neutral, at least the models I have had in the past (801f and CDM 9nt, with the 801f being my preference). Perhaps they are not the MOST neutral, but I found them to be quite un-coloured, especially in comparison to other speakers my father used.
 
I actually spent a fair bit of time with the Peachtree Decco in a semi-private auditioning earlier this week with my speakers, and was rather... unimpressed. It was hard to put my finger on just what was wrong, but compared to the Bryston stack, the Peachtree sounded like an iPod. Maybe the Nova would be better? I'll call up my local hi-fi place and book an audition, thank you for the suggestion.
 
Edit: Sorry, I should probably clarify about the Peachtree... I was unimpressed with it before I even auditioned the Bryston stack, so this isn't a shock comparison of $10,000 in audio equipment versus $1000. My first impression on hearing it was 'is this really what Stereophile was raving about?', and as the audition progressed I liked it even less.

 

[Koloth]

 
Well if it was really the Decco2 you were listening to (and not the original Decco 1 with supposedly worse preamplification and da-conversion), then the Nova wont do you much good. Its exactly the same thing just with twice the amplification power (2x80watts instead of 2x40watts). I'm quite suprised that you disliked it that much, because in my experience people are normally really impressed with it. Do you remember if you used the digital or analog inputs? There are two triggers on the back of the unit that allow you to manually set up different filtering options for the DA-conversion, maybe there was a problem there. Or maybe Peachtree really just isnt for you  Luckily theres a big enough market out there.
 
 
Here's another suggestion (based on personal experience and other persons feedback) that you could look at:
A french manufacturer called Advance Acoustic. I dont know whether you can find them in the US (although their website says they at least have a distributor in Canada), but they are really big in europe. In your range of budget the following units might be of interest:
 
Advance Acoustic MDA503 DA-Converter                      est. 1300 $
Advance Acoustic MDA305II 2x100watts Integrated        est. 1400 $
                                                                            total: 2700 $
or:
 
Advance Acoustic MPP505 Pre-Amp & DAC                  est. 1300 $
Advance Acoustic MAA406 2x150watts Power-Amp       est. 1300 $
                                                                          total: 2600 $
 
or if you want to keep a tighter budget there is the MAP305DAII which is a 2x100watts integrated amplifier with an additional digital-input board, that retails for around 1600$.
The prices above are conversions from the european pricing, so I'm not sure how much those units would cost you, if you could find a retailer in your area. But they are excellent value and built like tanks. (The design is very unique. Personally I dont like it, but many people find the distinct look attractive). Especially the amplifiers are incredibly (!!) good value for the money. Great timing, base and overall coherence (even though you wont find the last word in terms of refinement and detail here). I havent yet had a chance to test the DA-converters for any sufficient time, so I cant really comment on them, but they're also supposed to be really good.
This is their website, so you can have a look at the whole product portfolio:
http://www.advance-acoustic.com/en/produits/index/index/id/1

 

[perestroika]

Quote:

 
Well if it was really the Decco2 you were listening to (and not the original Decco 1 with supposedly worse preamplification and da-conversion), then the Nova wont do you much good. Its exactly the same thing just with twice the amplification power (2x80watts instead of 2x40watts). I'm quite suprised that you disliked it that much, because in my experience people are normally really impressed with it. Do you remember if you used the digital or analog inputs? There are two triggers on the back of the unit that allow you to manually set up different filtering options for the DA-conversion, maybe there was a problem there. Or maybe Peachtree really just isnt for you  Luckily theres a big enough market out there.
 
 
Here's another suggestion (based on personal experience and other persons feedback) that you could look at:
A french manufacturer called Advance Acoustic. I dont know whether you can find them in the US (although their website says they at least have a distributor in Canada), but they are really big in europe. In your range of budget the following units might be of interest:
 
Advance Acoustic MDA503 DA-Converter                      est. 1300 $
Advance Acoustic MDA305II 2x100watts Integrated        est. 1400 $
                                                                            total: 2700 $
or:
 
Advance Acoustic MPP505 Pre-Amp & DAC                  est. 1300 $
Advance Acoustic MAA406 2x150watts Power-Amp       est. 1300 $
                                                                          total: 2600 $
 
or if you want to keep a tighter budget there is the MAP305DAII which is a 2x100watts integrated amplifier with an additional digital-input board, that retails for around 1600$.
The prices above are conversions from the european pricing, so I'm not sure how much those units would cost you, if you could find a retailer in your area. But they are excellent value and built like tanks. (The design is very unique. Personally I dont like it, but many people find the distinct look attractive). Especially the amplifiers are incredibly (!!) good value for the money. Great timing, base and overall coherence (even though you wont find the last word in terms of refinement and detail here). I havent yet had a chance to test the DA-converters for any sufficient time, so I cant really comment on them, but they're also supposed to be really good.
This is their website, so you can have a look at the whole product portfolio:
http://www.advance-acoustic.com/en/produits/index/index/id/1

 
Hi Koloth,
 
It may have been the original Decco, but unless there was a significant and dramatic change in Peachtree's lineup (necessitating a whole new pricepoint, I would imagine), I don't think the new Decco will sound much better. I tried both the digital in (using a Bryston BCD-1 as transport) and analog in (using the BCD-1 again), and didn't enjoy either. I find it really hard to believe that anyone would be truly impressed with the Peachtree, but perhaps if they are coming from a world of 92kbps mp3s on an iPod, anything is a dramatic improvement.
 
As for the Advance Acoustics products, they look nice, but if I'm going for a 'real' stereo system (e.g., anything with more power than the Decco), I'm just going to get Bryston equipment. What I am specifically looking for here is high quality low-powered amplification, not cheaper high-powered amplification. The Bryston stack with my speakers barely got to 8:30 on the volume knob before it was too loud for my apartment, hence my feeling of much of its potential being wasted on such a small listening space.
 

 

[jilgiljongiljing]

 I'm with perestroika on this one. I wasn't impressed with the Peachtree as well. I had the exact same reaction as well going, why is this such a big deal. Yes its compact, looks kinda neat and offers a one box solution for serious audio lovers, but heck you can do much better buying seperate DAC and amp. Also the DAC in the Peachtree is not even close to the DAC1 in terms of D-A, I'd put it in line with the 200-300$ offerings commonly references in the computer audio section. The amp is good, but not tight enough IMO, I heard it with Paradigm and B&W, hugely different flavours of speakers and neither sounded good with it. A Pioneer Elite and Sony HT receiver ended up sounding better with the Paradigm, and Arcam/Primare ran circles around the Peachtree for B&W.
 
I'm not saying you need to get upto Primare or Arcam territory.I found much better results using just a DacMagic+ Onkyo 9555, a combination that ended up costing quite a bit lesser. You should also look at the Outlaw RR2150, another solid performer in the amp category, and the MF dacs with PSU that many say they prefer over the Dacmagic. Also worth considering is the Stello (but I honestly couldnt tell the difference when I did an A/B between the Stello and Dacmagic). I'd invest <500$ DAC wise, and put 500+ on the amp.

 

[jellojoe]

Some people may take offense to this recommendation, but how about a clone of a firstwatt F5? A used one should run you around $500 and leave with you plenty of money left for preamp and dac.

 

[Zainul]

Take a look at the Audio Gd range of amplifiers and DACs. Not the most well known for speaker amplifiers but they are truly superb and the value for money is through the roof. There is a thread on here somehwhere about their amplifiers - shipping to the US will be fairly expensive but if you take a look at the topology, components used etc. you will find it easily competes with anything at the same price level. I've personally used the SA-300 Master with MA RS6's and a pair of Lektors and loved both the combinations.

 

[perestroika]

Quote:

Some people may take offense to this recommendation, but how about a clone of a firstwatt F5? A used one should run you around $500 and leave with you plenty of money left for preamp and dac.

Hi jellojoe,
 
This was an excellent suggestion, thank you! Almost the perfect wattage, and pretty classy looking too. After looking through some of the reviews though, most of the clones don't seem to be all that well constructed, and I think having a source, DAC, preamp and power amp to turn on every time my girlfriend wants to listen to music might be somewhat anti GAF (Girlfriend Approval Factor).

 
Quote:

Take a look at the Audio Gd range of amplifiers and DACs. Not the most well known for speaker amplifiers but they are truly superb and the value for money is through the roof. There is a thread on here somehwhere about their amplifiers - shipping to the US will be fairly expensive but if you take a look at the topology, components used etc. you will find it easily competes with anything at the same price level. I've personally used the SA-300 Master with MA RS6's and a pair of Lektors and loved both the combinations.

Thanks for the suggestion Zainul, but the Audio-GD amplifiers are a bit out of my power range, no matter how good they will be. However, their DACs are something I was strongly considering, and I will likely go with one of their higher-end models if I can budget it after my amp choice.
 
In terms of the amplification, I figure I would be good with 15 watts per channel of clean power, 200w/ch in to 8 ohms is a bit much.

 

[jellojoe]

Easy GAF solution: don't turn it off.
More complex GAF solution: Pick up components that have DC triggers to turn themselves once the first one in the chain is on. Something like the Parasound SCAMP can help out if you have components which don't have triggers.
 
Quote:

Hi jellojoe,
 
This was an excellent suggestion, thank you! Almost the perfect wattage, and pretty classy looking too. After looking through some of the reviews though, most of the clones don't seem to be all that well constructed, and I think having a source, DAC, preamp and power amp to turn on every time my girlfriend wants to listen to music might be somewhat anti GAF (Girlfriend Approval Factor).

 

 

[Lenni]

some other suggestions that I read on magazines, and personally like, but have not experience with them:
 
Wadia PowerDAC mini - DAC and Integrated Amp in a Single Chassis.
 
XTZ Class A-100 Power Amplifier - review
 
Stello DA100 Signature DAC

 

[ford2]

 
 
Buy a decent used AVR.

 

[perestroika]

Quote:

some other suggestions that I read on magazines, and personally like, but have not experience with them:
 
Wadia PowerDAC mini - DAC and Integrated Amp in a Single Chassis.
 
XTZ Class A-100 Power Amplifier - review
 
Stello DA100 Signature DAC

The Wadia looks interesting, but I would really like to hear it in person, something I doubt will happen.
 
Quote:

 
 
Buy a decent used AVR.

Thanks, but no.