[mateo05]

I'm having a senseless outburst of teh upgradeitis!!!!1 and so I'm looking at home systems now. I keep seeing how people talk on and on about how the HD650 is so much better balanced- but, this usually has involved $$$$. Then I stumbled across a two single-ended amp cabled to be balanced setup (two Grace m901s and a DAC-1- I believe it was gerG's), and I got thinking a bit.

There are a number of quality "budget" home amps out there from $200-500ish, and then another tier at $1k+. It would cost roughly the same to rig two of the "budget" amps into a balanced amp as it would to go with one of the more expensive single-ended amps. Which way do you think is better in the end? Do you think that the single-ended amps' higher quality overcomes the advantage of balanced drive?

Some random "budget" amps to be balanced for comparison's sake (I'm not thinking of any in particular):

Gilmore Lite/Dynalo (already out there balanced as the Dynamid)
Headroom Micro/Desktop
RSA SR-71
Eddie Current EC-01
Woo Audio 2
Millet Hybrid
etc.

Some single-ended amps in the "higher" tier:

Singlepower PPX3 (Slam)/MPX3/etc.
RSA Raptor
Dynahi/GS-1
Headroom Desktop w/ Home/Max
etc.

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Or you could get a source like the Lavry DA10, Benchmark DAC1, Wadia CDP, etc. and use the balanced outputs as your headphone amp. Gets you a better source and better amp.

 

[mateo05]

True, but aren't dedicated amps generally regarded as superior to those in the DACs (although I know the Lavry is respectable). In any case, I'm interested in just this comparison, assuming the source is quality and the same for both. I'm nowhere near actually building a system yet, just musing...

 

[Vic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer Or you could get a source like the Lavry DA10, Benchmark DAC1, Wadia CDP, etc. and use the balanced outputs as your headphone amp. Gets you a better source and better amp.

Iron, how good is the balanced out of the Lavry to drive the HD650 directely? how does it compare to real balanced amps?

I have two balanced sources (RA Opus 21 and Lavry DA10), both able in theory able to drive HP, and a pair of HD 650, but could not try them as I am waiting for the balanced cable

 

[Alwayswantmore]

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[mateo05]

Thanks for the input, but like I said, I'm just interested in this specific comparison. I guess think of it more theoretical than actual practical advice- I'm interested in other Headfiers' opinions here.

And on a personal note, I don't do CD players. Computer -> DAC is wayyy too practical to give up, with IMHO the potential for quality equal to the higher-end players.

 

[Alwayswantmore]

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[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic Iron, how good is the balanced out of the Lavry to drive the HD650 directely? how does it compare to real balanced amps?

I've not tried it with the Lavry myself, but it did work pretty well with the DAC1. I'd rather have a Lavry alone with HD650's balanced, than a balanced amp and a cheapo source. Of course, if one can afford a balanced amp and good source, then you're really in business.

 

[TheSloth]

I'd go for a higher end single ended amp. You can get a much better source and amplifier in terms of tonal quality if they are both single ended. If you try to get a balanced source and balanced amp at the same price, you are making significant compromises.

The best headphone amplification I have ever heard is indeed fully balanced, but you have to go quite a way up the price tree to get to that performance without any associated compromises. Balanced drive requires much tighter tolerances for component matching, and it requires a fully balanced source to not partially defeat the object.

My experience is mainly with HeadRoom amplifiers, but as an example, to my ears a Balanced Home with Home Modules will be mainly a crossgrade, but partially a downgrade from a single ended Home with Max Modules. When I was working out what options to get for my Balanced Home (now sold...

), I already owned a Desktop with Max everything, and wanted to know whether he thought going from Max Modules to Balanced Home Modules would be an upgrade or not, and he felt it wouldn't be. Now having had the experience myself, I'm inclined to agree with him.

 

[mateo05]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheSloth I'd go for a higher end single ended amp. You can get a much better source and amplifier in terms of tonal quality if they are both single ended. If you try to get a balanced source and balanced amp at the same price, you are making significant compromises. The best headphone amplification I have ever heard is indeed fully balanced, but you have to go quite a way up the price tree to get to that performance without any associated compromises. Balanced drive requires much tighter tolerances for component matching, and it requires a fully balanced source to not partially defeat the object. My experience is mainly with HeadRoom amplifiers, but as an example, to my ears a Balanced Home with Home Modules will be mainly a crossgrade, but partially a downgrade from a single ended Home with Max Modules. When I was working out what options to get for my Balanced Home (now sold... ), I already owned a Desktop with Max everything, and wanted to know whether he thought going from Max Modules to Balanced Home Modules would be an upgrade or not, and he felt it wouldn't be. Now having had the experience myself, I'm inclined to agree with him.

Thank you for this advice. I'm trying to eliminate source compromises here (thinking that in real life, I'd invest in source, BS my way in amps, then go for higher amps). But that advice regarding balanced Home vs single-ended Max is rather startling- it seems with the way everyone talks about balanced that your initial difference would have to be greater.

That really puts things in perspective.

 

[TheSloth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mateo05 Thank you for this advice. I'm trying to eliminate source compromises here (thinking that in real life, I'd invest in source, BS my way in amps, then go for higher amps). But that advice regarding balanced Home vs single-ended Max is rather startling- it seems with the way everyone talks about balanced that your initial difference would have to be greater. That really puts things in perspective.

I am all for balanced drive - in my experience it is better, but only when done right, which usually carries a pretty giant price tag that I would never say carries a good price/performance ratio.

The problem with so many impressions of balanced amplifiers is that when they get a new amp, they often recable their headphones and are sometimes even reacting to sonic changes (not even necessarilly sonic improvements, just changes) from that more than from the change in drive scheme.

To me, assuming it is a very well designed (solid state (I have no experience with tubes)) amplifier, the drive scheme does not effect the fundamental sound. The sonic character, tonality, or whatever else you might want to call it is basically the same between single ended and balanced. What balanced offers over and above the sound of it's single ended couterpart is hard to describe - it just brings a certain reality to the sound, a coherency of soundstage and more powerful dynamic contrasts. But it doesn't change the fundamental character of the electronics. People often rave about how balancing the HD-650 for example 'removes the veil' and magically changes it into a completely different headphone. Honestly I didn't hear it. The balanced HD650 sounded like the good old 650 I knew and loved (fortunately...), simply possessing the aforementioned improvements in the overall experience.

In my HeadRoom amp journey, I found what 'sound' I thought was just right and that turned out to be Max Modules. That was a single ended Desktop w/Max Modules. It was only on the basis of that that I decided I wanted a Balanced Home w/Max Modules - I already knew the fundamental sound, and was happy with it so had the confidence to jump to a balanced configuration using the same electronics I knew and loved. But I had to sell that Balanced Home for financial reasons, and now listen with a mutant system (see sig) that is somewhat comparable to that single ended Desktop w/Max Modules. Having been up there in the rarified atmosphere of balanced drive, despite the improved and palpable experience of almost 'being there', I'm not sure I'd go back. I'm much more interested in the fundamental tone of the sound, and particularly with solid state amplifiers, that rarely changes with drive scheme.

 

[Vic]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron_Dreamer I've not tried it with the Lavry myself, but it did work pretty well with the DAC1. I'd rather have a Lavry alone with HD650's balanced, than a balanced amp and a cheapo source. Of course, if one can afford a balanced amp and good source, then you're really in business.

I am waiting to receive a balanced cable to use with the Lavry DA 10 and specially with my Resolution Audio Opus 21 which I have just received.
I have read a post saying that although he preferred clearly the Opus 21 to the Lavry as a source, the balanced output was not as good as in the Lavry.
How is this possible since the Opus 21 outputs 5.5 volts in balanced mode, which should be more than enough.
I would have thought that in case of direct balanced connection with the source, the quality of the output should only be a factor of the quality of the source, since there is nothing in between. Could there be an issue of not enough current output or something else?

I don't mean to get this thread off topic, but I think this is very relevant to the question asked by the original poster

 

[Iron_Dreamer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vic I am waiting to receive a balanced cable to use with the Lavry DA 10 and specially with my Resolution Audio Opus 21 which I have just received. I have read a post saying that although he preferred clearly the Opus 21 to the Lavry as a source, the balanced output was not as good as in the Lavry. How is this possible since the Opus 21 outputs 5.5 volts in balanced mode, which should be more than enough. I would have thought that in case of direct balanced connection with the source, the quality of the output should only be a factor of the quality of the source, since there is nothing in between. Could there be an issue of not enough current output or something else? I don't mean to get this thread off topic, but I think this is very relevant to the question asked by the original poster

It would depend on the circuit topology, and how differently the balanced and single-ended outputs were implemented. Many people have reported the balanced and single-ended outputs of various sources to sound different. even though common sense says they shouldn't. The best thing is what you're going to do, just try it and find out.